The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

The first item is questions to the Minister for Climate Change, and the first question is from Laura Anne Jones.

Cladding Issues

Laura Anne Jones AC: 1. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support people that have been affected by cladding issues? OQ58217

Julie James AC: I’m committed to looking beyond cladding, taking a holistic approach to building safety. This includes changing regulations that govern building control, legislation and addressing existing building safety issues through the Welsh building safety fund. Aluminium composite material cladding removal from the majority of high-rise buildings is completed, with plans in place for all the rest.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you. Llywydd, I'd just like to declare an interest on this issue.
My question to you, Minister, is that I have constituents in buildings that are waiting for their properties to be made safe, as you've just outlined. At the moment, they're waiting for that process, and, in that time, they're not able to sell their properties, upsize—there are a whole host of issues obviously affected by that, and it's affecting the housing market. What are you doing and what active steps are you taking to ensure that that process is speeded up or resolved as soon as possible so that they are able to get those fire certificates so that they can sell their properties? Thank you.

Julie James AC: So, I have got a statement just on this next week actually to go into it in more detail, but just to say that we're very committed to making sure that all of the defects in the buildings, not just the ACM cladding, are remedied. So, the ACM cladding, we've sorted that out. The private sector buildings have all got plans in place that are under construction and approved to do that particular bit of it.
In the meantime, we’ve been doing the surveys. We’ve completed all of the desktop exercise surveys and begun the intrusive surveys. Intrusive surveys have to be done, obviously, in conjunction with the people living in the buildings because they are intrusive and therefore we’ve got to be sure that people are happy and they can cope with it in their everyday lives. And as soon as the intrusive surveys are complete on the buildings, then we’ll be able to commission the work to put the buildings right. I will go into a lot more detail next week in my statement rather than pre-announce things today.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Last week, I hosted a vigil to mark five years since 72 people lost their lives in the Grenfell Tower fire, and many more people lost their homes as well. I was grateful to all the Members of the Senedd and campaigners who joined us. I wonder if I could ask about an issue concerning the relationship between the Welsh Government and your colleagues in Westminster. It seems to me that there is a total breakdown in inter-governmental working that has led to Welsh homeowners missing out on key developments in the UK Building Safety Act 2022. And I wonder if you could just outline what these issues are so that Welsh homeowners can have the same access to the same recourse as those in England and that, crucially, developers are required and offer the finance to start urgent and immediate work to put right their failures. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Julie James AC: Yes, as I say, I will go into a lot more detail on this next week, because I'll take up the whole of question time if I do it now. But, suffice it to say that, as a result of an inter-ministerial group meeting with Michael Gove, we've made some progress in making sure that we're included in the negotiations with the main developers. Next week, I'll be able to give some more detail of that. The issues that we were unhappy with were the last-minute additions to the Building Safety Act that we had no real time to consider. Although, we did not want to be involved in one aspect of that—that's where the leaseholders are the backstop payees, because we still take the view that leaseholders should not be made to pay for the remediation of the buildings even as a backstop, but I'll go into more detail in my statement next week.

The Value of Trees

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the value of trees to a healthy environment? OQ58230

Julie James AC: Diolch. Trees provide a wide range of benefits, including carbon storage, biodiversity, flood alleviation and recreation. We have undertaken detailed evaluation of these benefits, including through the environmental and rural affairs modelling and monitoring programme's national forest evidence pack and work on natural capital accounts—sorry, that's hard to say: 'natural capital accounts'.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for that response.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I think we're all in principle in favour of planting a lot more trees, although, I must say, I have real concern about decisions taken by Welsh Government to buy good agricultural land to plant trees on. But that's not the focus of my question today; it's about protecting the trees we already have. In Holyhead, there's real anger about the plans that have been in place for a decade or so now to fell a large area of woodland at Penrhos, to make way for the construction of a leisure village. Now, the baseline area of outstanding natural beauty assessment report for that leisure development application itself tells us that Anglesey is one of the least wooded counties in the UK. But, at Penrhos, I think something like 27 acres of woodland is earmarked for felling, and it's in a much-loved area, a publicly used area, which will be lost. Does the Government consider it worth while to step in to protect trees, is it willing to take action to protect woodland, or is it just about buying up land to plant new ones?

Julie James AC: So, that's quite a complicated set of issues, Rhun, although I appreciate the sentiment and agree with it. So, just on the criticism of land purchased by NRW, we do purchase small amounts of land across Wales, and have done for very many years, as substitute planting land, particularly where we have windfarm siting on the Welsh woodland estate, and so the acreage of trees that comes down for each of the pillars is replaced as part of that policy. If Members haven't had a chance to do so, I recently went up to Pen y Cymoedd, to have a look at what happened with the replanting around the turbines there, and the increase in biodiversity is quite startling. And it's great, because they had a baseline when they put the windfarm in, and what they've got now. So, over those five years, it's the first time we've actually had some proper baseline to see what's happened. You can see that the change in the planting, to biodiverse, broadleaf mixed woodland, away from monocultural Sitkas has made a really serious difference there. So, that's replacement land. It's been done for ages, it's not a binary issue of any sort. We make sure that we don't do it on the best agricultural land, of course, and it's a mixture of land that is often done in conjunction with some of the young farmers scheme, just to be clear. I did say in committee the other day that if any Member had evidence of a particular farm that they wanted us to look at that's been purchased by either the Welsh Government or NRW, to let us know, because I'm not aware of any. That doesn't mean to say we know everything, of course, so if you have information, please let us know.
Going back to Anglesey, two things have happened on Anglesey, Ynys Môn. The first is that we've commissioned work on the red squirrel issue, which I know has been brought up. I know that's not the issue you've just talked about, but we were discussing that not very long ago, and I think Darren Millar, amongst others, has also raised it. So, I've commissioned a piece of work to tell us how best to protect the habitat in the productive forests there. So, we've got that piece of work, which I'm expecting to have very shortly, to base it on. On Penrhos, that's rather more complicated, because it's a planning authority planning application issue. So, I can't comment on the individual aspects of that, because, obviously, I'm the planning Minister and I might end up with an appellate role there. But, generally, it's the local planning authority that has responsibility for both instituting its policies in its local development plan and then taking them forward. So, obviously, that's Ynys Môn council.

James Evans MS: As we all know, trees are very important to tackling climate change. But with the Welsh Government's decision recently to purchase Gilestone Farm in my community, I think I just heard you, Minister, say you do not plant on productive land. So, I'd just like some assurances from yourself, and for the community in my constituency, that you do not intend to plant trees on Gilestone Farm, which is what you've just said.
Also, a second question: with big corporations buying up vast swathes of farmland in my constituency for carbon offsetting, there are big concerns that these corporations can access funding from the Welsh Government to plant these trees, so could I have some assurances from you that you're looking at this, to make sure that actual grants to plant trees are focused on genuine farm businesses that want to diversify and not to help big corporations meet their climate change targets? Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: So, Gilestone Farm, as I know the Member knows perfectly well, has been bought as part of the economic development portfolio attempt to secure the future of the Green Man festival, one of the only independent festivals left in Europe. And it's nothing to do with NRW or tree creation. Of course, I cannot promise not to plant a single tree on the land of Gilestone Farm—that would be ridiculous.
In terms of directing the woodland creation schemes to active farmers, this is a matter that's been rehearsed in this Chamber a number of times. And, of course, we encourage applications from charities and third sector organisations, such as the Woodland Trust, some of whom have headquarters outside of Wales, to make applications to increase the coverage of our biodiverse forest. The people on the benches opposite go on at me a lot about climate change and biodiversity rescue. We cannot do that unless we change the way that we use our land. The climate change committee has been very clear what acreage of land needs to be covered by biodiverse forests in Wales, and we are following that balanced pathway.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, it is a fact that people on the lowest incomes in Wales are breathing in the most polluted air. Friends of the Earth have found that, in Wales, income-deprived areas disproportionately have the worst air pollution, and people of colour are 2.5 times more likely to live in an area with high particulate pollution, and five times more likely to live in a nitrogen oxide-polluted neighbourhood. Clearly, inaction by this Welsh Government is harming our black, our Asian, our minority ethnic communities and the poorest in society the most. Indeed, Joseph Carter, very well known to us here in the Chamber because of the work that he's done as chair of Healthy Air Cymru, was spot on when he said,
'This new research is shocking but not surprising.'
Even the First Minister knew of the seriousness of air pollution when he pledged in his 2018 Labour leadership manifesto to develop a new clean air Act. However, Minister, over three and a half years later, even you were unable to inform our climate change committee just last week whether the clean air legislation is drafted to the extent where it could be brought forward, if the First Minister decides. Now, whilst I would be pleased to understand whether or not you support the First Minister's delaying of clean air legislation, I would also be grateful if you could clarify why the consultation outcome of the White Paper on a clean air (Wales) Bill, which ended on 7 April, 2021—

You have three questions, Janet Finch-Saunders, and you're way over in your first question. So, please come to a question.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —14 months ago, still has not been published.

Okay. Thank you.

Julie James AC: Well, I think that was five questions, actually. [Laughter.]

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, just the one question. Tell us why the report's not been—

Julie James AC: Well, which one would you like me to answer, Janet?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The clean air—why the paper hasn't been published.

Julie James AC: Okay, that's very straightforward. I'm pleased to say that we published on 7 June the engagement plan, which will help us with the information that we need in order to bring forward the clean air Act.

Now that's an excellent way to do it—ask a short question, Janet, as you did towards the end and you get a short answer.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: That's the beauty of spokespersons' questions—we do have some leverage.

No. I think I'd move quickly on if I was you, Janet.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The repeated delays by this Welsh Government are a mess, and if you don't believe me, listen to Haf Elgar, vice-chair of Healthy Air Cymru and director of Friends of the Earth Cymru, who states,
'If Wales wants to be a fair and just nation, as well as a green one, we must clean up our act now.'
Wales Environment Link and Healthy Air Cymru have stated that Wales needs access to environmental justice. Their letter to the Welsh Government highlights that, in Wales, 1,600 people die each year due to air pollution, only a fraction of our best nature sites on land and sea are in good condition, and that continued delays in passing laws to protect and improve our environment undermines people's right to environmental justice. What greater warning do 20 organisations and all members of WEL need to give you before you listen to our calls for you to take environmental justice seriously, put robust legislation in place to drive nature recovery, as well as the tools to hold your own Government to account?

Julie James AC: So, once again, it's very fine words and absolutely no action from you. So, we have done a number of things already on the clean air (Wales) Bill, which we'll introduce in this Senedd term. It's one of a number of actions set out in the clean air plan for Wales, 'Healthy Air, Healthy Wales', which we are taking to improve air quality. The action taken includes, of course, the Welsh transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', and the roads review, and the stopping of building of roads all over Wales, which increases both the emissions and the particulates. And you don't like those bits. The robust action that we do take, you're unable to support in any way. So, fine words, no action, once again, from the Tory benches.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It's fair to say that if the Welsh Conservatives were in Government and had your levers, then we'd actually be using them.
Now, despite England and Northern Ireland having the Office for Environmental Protection, Scotland having environmental standards, here in Wales we are still relying on temporary arrangements that WEL and Healthy Air Cymru have described as lacking legal powers, public strategy, and an easily navigable webiste. However, even more concerning is that the interim environmental protection assessor for Wales's annual report highlights, and I quote:
'One key issue identified during the review has been that demand for the service has been significantly higher than originally expected.'
Minister, in light of this, we have been working to put in place more robust processes to ensure that we are targeting our resources at issues where we can add the most value. In light of the high demand for assistance with environmental law, will you fast-track the process of establishing a permanent body?

Julie James AC: So, Janet, again, once more, how many times have I got to say the same thing? We are absolutely committed to putting an environmental protection body in place. The interim environmental protection plan is working; it's actually highlighting how many people want their issues looked at, and in a much shorter timescale than was ever possible before. As you well know, we are working with the deep dive on biodiversity to put the standards in place that will have the targets that will hold our feet to the fire. Having a badge that says, 'I don't know what I want, but I want it now' is all very well, but it's actually important to have targets that mean something and that will actually push the thing forward, and not just, once more, a set of empty words.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to highlight the contribution of fibre broadband as we move towards net zero and a sustainable future. The Welsh Government has set a target of 30 per cent of the workforce working from home, or close to home, regularly by 2030. What's apparent is that we need a broadband network that provides simpler, more reliable working experiences from our homes, community hubs and so on. Recent research by the Institute of Welsh Affairs has highlighted exactly how upgrading the full fibre network would support decarbonisation, either by reusing existing ducts and telegraph poles, or because new technologies emit 80 per cent less carbon even before factoring in the use of zero-carbon energies. So, Minister, what is the role of effective fibre broadband in the Government's broader strategy to achieve zero carbon emissions by 2050 or sooner?

Julie James AC: Diolch, Delyth. I completely agree; a digital strategy is absolutely essential to doing that. You're absolutely right; we are committed to having at least 30 per cent of people working from home or near home—so, much less commuting time and hopefully much less polluting commuting type. In order to do that, of course, we have to provide them with facilities to be able to do that, both digitally and in an office environment. We are looking, as you know, at community hubs in various places in Wales to enable that to happen, and, actually, the social part of that is a big deal as well, because people can become isolated at home.
The Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters, recently outlined in the Chamber the fact that we've changed slightly our digital strategy for Wales, having had a very successful roll-out of Broadband Cymru, because actually this isn't a devolved area. We've intervened, because otherwise the UK Government would not have, and we would have had a large number of premises without any reliable broadband. But, recently, we've had another look at that, and we've had some success in getting the UK Government to look again at its strategy. They've just introduced a number of promises, which we hope will come to fruition, and we've been reusing some of our money. Very recently, in answer to a question from Rhun, I think it was, Lee Waters announced the work with Bangor University, for example, which is a really interesting new innovation that may well bring much better connectivity to people across Wales.
So, we broadly agree. We continue to put pressure on the UK Government, and we are targeting our own money much more specifically at premises—the white premises, as they're called—with no connectivity at all, rather than upgrading people who have connectivity to full fibre with our money, because we think that the UK Government should step up to its responsibilities and do that.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. For my second and final question, I'd like to turn to deforestation and supply chains. At COP26, you said that you were determined to change the Welsh Government procurement policy to ensure that we're promoting supply chains that are fair, that are ethical and that are sustainable. I welcome that. That would not only reduce Wales's global footprint, it would also support local economies. We have an opportunity to become a leader in this place, following, or rather joining, pioneers like France and the state of California, which have introduced procurement policies to end deforestation and tackle climate change. Minister, there is evidence as well that the public are supportive of these actions. A recent WWF Cymru survey of rural Welsh communities found that 84 per cent of respondents agreed that public services that provide and sell food, like schools and hospitals, should not buy food from sources where it can contribute to nature loss and climate change both in Wales and overseas. So, could you tell us, Minister, what progress has been made to introduce deforestation-free targets, risk assessments and due diligence processes in public sector procurement practices, please?

Julie James AC: Yes, certainly, Delyth. Procurement is actually in Rebecca Evans's portfolio, but obviously I work very, very closely with Rebecca. She has recently announced a number of research issues into procurement, one of which is absolutely making sure that Wales does not use up more of the world's resources than is our fair share. Part of that is to make sure, when buying products or having supply chains here that rely on products that necessarily mean deforestation in other parts of the world, that we look to replace those products in the supply chain and assist the countries to come away from the practices that they have to reforestation.
We're very proud of our work in Africa, in Uganda, in Mbale, with the trees that we plant—one tree there, one tree here, for every child born in Wales. It's always worth reminding people of that. We're very proud of the reforestation that we've been able to do. I've promised to work with Size of Wales on a project that allows both the public sector and, as far as possible, the private sector in Wales to understand what its supply chains look like and to make sure that products that necessarily incur deforestation across the world are removed from those supply chains as fast as possible.

Public Transport in the Vale of Clwyd

Gareth Davies AS: 3. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to improve public transport in the Vale of Clwyd? OQ58226

Julie James AC: Our north Wales metro programme will transform rail, bus and active travel services across north Wales. The metros offer some of the best opportunities to meet our target of 45 per cent of journeys being made by public transport or active travel by 2040, helping reduce road congestion, carbon emissions and air pollution.

Gareth Davies AS: I appreciate your response, Minister. My inbox has been flooded with correspondence from gravely concerned constituents regarding local transport matters. Transport-related problems now total the second highest category of my casework. The problems that my constituents have to endure range from inadequate and infrequent bus timetabling, especially in more rural areas of the constituency, to overcrowded trains and a lack of forward planning by the rail services, with too few carriages being put on during known busy events such as Chester races and local sporting events. Given your Government has set ambitious aims to tackle climate change, it isn't rocket science that the problems I've outlined will need rectifying, especially if you want to attract more passengers onto public transport. So, Minister, what are you going to do to reassure my concerned constituents on these issues and enhance their experience of utilising public transport within the Vale of Clwyd?

Julie James AC: Thank you. I understand you've raised concerns with Transport for Wales regarding the poor performance of trains in your constituency, and I think you've had a response from them. There have been occasions where TfW have had to make last-minute cancellations, and incidents where we needed to operate rail replacement services to ensure there are alternative journey options. Some 68 per cent of those cancelled services are related to Network Rail issues where they needed to investigate various incidents on the infrastructure. The track and signalling of the north Wales coast main line is managed and operated by Network Rail and this limits TfW's ability to operate when an incident arises. Unfortunately, some incidents, such as a trespasser on the line or a fatality, require sensitive attention and involve the British Transport Police.
Where possible, Transport for Wales attempt to replace the service to make sure that people can travel. Sometimes, the alternative would be to cancel it altogether. And although, of course, we are very sorry for the crowded conditions, it's sometimes better to have the service in crowded conditions than not to have it at all, which might be the other option. And of course we're working to improve the network overall. Recent strikes—yesterday's and tomorrow's—and today's disruption are caused by the way that Network Rail interacts with the rail operating companies. So, having a proper conversation with the UK Government about why that system put in place by the Conservatives really has been shown to fail in every single regard is one of the things that's top of our list.

Community Allotments

Jayne Bryant AC: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to increase the number of community allotments in south-east Wales? OQ58237

Julie James AC: Our allotment support grant is now in its second year and will allocate £750,000 across all of Wales's local authorities to help improve and increase allotment provision. In addition to this dedicated fund, a range of other programmes, such as Local Places for Nature, also help support the development of allotments.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. The pandemic has shone a light on many inequalities in society, and access to green space was, for me, one of the greatest lessons we need to learn and address. For manyin the most densely populated areas, stepping into the garden is not possible, and in city centre wards, such as those in my constituency, green spaces are often limited. Therefore, allotments and community gardens are a vital lifeline to nature and the social interactions that come with them. The benefits are far-reaching. On the most basic level, they help with food production, especially when the cost of living is biting, and they also help to address isolation and improve mental well-being. Community allotments are needed where people are most densely populated, however this is also where land is often at its most premium. How can the Welsh Government help to ease the process where disused land can be transformed into places that benefit the community, and what support can we give local authorities and housing associations to scope out those ignored pockets so that they can better support local people?

Julie James AC: I completely agree, Jayne; the pandemic certainly highlighted the need for people to have an outside space that was usable and actually connect back to nature, which is good for not just physical health but also very good for mental health, of course. We have Welsh Government guidance available that provides community groups with the knowledge and tools to take ownership of green spaces—actually, including wasteland spaces; they wouldn't necessarily be green right now. A variety of organisations provide expert advice and support the transfer of green spaces to community organisations. We fund the community land advisory service to provide support for local groups and identify and take ownership or control of green spaces for recreation and food growing. We've worked with over 200 groups since 2018 to help negotiate transfers of land to community groups, including, I'm pleased to say, two in Newport. I know that you're familiar with the Local Places for Nature programme, which has created over 300 green spaces across Wales in the last year alone, with 22 in Newport, including work I know you're familiar with at Pill community allotment.

Natasha Asghar AS: I'd like to thank my colleague Jayne Bryant for bringing this question to the forefront. Some schools in my region and elsewhere in Wales have surplus land available as part of their school grounds. Some such as, and pardon my pronunciation, Olchfa Comprehensive School in your constituency—[Interruption.] That's it, yes—are selling off their land for housing. However, some schools have surplus land that, although may not be large enough for housing development, may be suitable for allotments, thereby increasing the engagement of schools with the communities they serve and teaching pupils about where their food comes from and the importance of fresh vegetables for a healthy diet. What discussions have you had, Minister, with ministerial colleagues and others about potentially encouraging schools to turn over parts of their grounds for farming and growing in partnership with community organisations?

Julie James AC: We already do that. It's part of the curriculum, apart from anything else. We of course encourage schools to encourage community use. I've had not only conversations but visits with my colleague Jeremy Miles to schools doing just that. We're very keen to get schools on board with that project, so if you know of any who aren't yet doing it who would like to, then we'd be very pleased to help.

Land Use

Jenny Rathbone AC: 5. What work is the Minister doing on land use planning to ensure the best use is made of land in the context of Net Zero Wales? OQ58229

Julie James AC: Thank you, Jenny. To meet our net-zero ambitions will require land use change. The majority of land in Wales is used for agriculture. The sustainable farming scheme will incentivise farmers to make best use of their land to deliver economic, social and environmental outcomes through a land sharing approach.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I want to follow up on the questions that both Jayne Bryant and Natasha Asghar have asked, but in relation to growing food for sale. We obviously have to reduce our carbon emissions from food, including the miles that food has to travel. The Sustain report on fringe farming, published earlier this year, highlights the importance of protecting peri-urban land with grade 1 and grade 2 soils for growing food. I'm looking forward to the work that Food Cardiff is doing with Cardiff Council to map exactly who owns which pieces of land on the fringes of Cardiff as well as Newport. I particularly have my eye on the floodplain between Cardiff and Newport, which seems an ideal place for growing food. So, what action will the Welsh Government take to protect fertile peri-urban land on the edge of towns and cities for growing food as part of your ambition for sustainable urban communities?

Julie James AC: I'm very much on board with that, Jenny. We have a national plan system in Wales—a planned system that allows us to have a robust framework for ensuring agricultural land is protected for productive use through 'Planning Policy Wales' and 'Future Wales: the national plan 2040'. 'Planning Policy Wales' seeks to ensure the best use is made for land. For example, it has a clear preference for the use of suitable and sustainable previously developed land for development within existing settlements, it has a strong policy to protect peri-urban areas against development, including urban sprawl, and seeks to conserve the best and most versatile agricultural land as a finite resource for the future. It requires local planning authorities to undertake a search sequence when preparing local development plans to prioritise the allocation of suitable and sustainable sites. Best and most versatile agricultural land, grades 1, 2 and 3A, should only be developed if there is what's called 'an overriding need'. That's a legal term; it's a very high bar. It doesn't mean 'just because you can't think of anywhere better'; they have to show that no other suitable land is available before that's permitted to that overriding need.
We've also got a long-term strategy to promote a dietary shift and encourage Welsh consumers to eat a healthier, more sustainable food source. While we want to encourage people to buy high-quality, local Welsh produce, we can work with our food production sector to ensure it's produced in a truly sustainable manner and avoid simply offshoring emissions to other countries. I had a very good meeting with the Country Land and Business Association very recently where we discussed the various ways, for example, that you could produce Welsh breed cattle without importing any kind of soy produce, reducing not only the food miles if you buy and eat that meat, but the food miles to produce it in the first place. So, we're doing a very good piece of work with my colleague Lesley Griffithson that while protecting the peri-urban land. And then, in conjunction with a conversation with Jayne and with Natasha, making sure that all available land is used to bring particularly urban populations back into touch with how food is grown and where it's best produced.

Joel James MS: Minister, the 'Net Zero Wales Carbon Budget 2' states that:
'Meeting net zero will require using more timber in sectors such as construction to replace currently high energy manufacture materials such as steel and concrete.'
and also that this Government intends to develop a new timber industrial strategy
'to develop a wood economy and encourage greater use of timber in construction.'
But my concern is none of this is particularly transparent in terms of how the carbon footprint of timber is calculated. It suggests that timber use in construction is somehow carbon free, when, in fact, it is manufactured product that needs energy inputs for harvesting and transportation, and then there is the carbon released from soil disturbance. It then needs to be processed using energy-intensive chemical preservatives and glues. And none of this takes account of the life cycle of carbon during the in-use phase of the building. Minister, I was disappointed in your response to my written question regarding carbon emissions from soil, because it highlighted the insufficient evidence there is to support this Government's plan going forward. Indeed, by the time your timber industry strategy even begins to come to fruition in 40 to 50 years' time, the concrete industry will already be completely decarbonised. With this in mind, Minister, what consideration has this Government given to measuring the potential of the concrete industry in the carbon sequestration process? And will the Minister agree to meet with me and representatives of the industry to discuss how concrete can play an important part in the decarbonisation of Wales? Thank you.

Julie James AC: So, obviously, there's a complex series of calculations around carbon and carbon sequestration for a variety of different products. I can't pretend to be an expert in that, but we have a number of people advising us, including on the deep-dive panels and so on, who are. One of the things that we want to do is come, especially for soil, to an agreement with farmers for how they measure carbon on their land, for example, and their carbon emissions. So, we have a piece of work going on across the Government on agreeing a set of standards and standard measurement tools in order to do just that. We're very pleased to work with any industry in Wales that wants to decarbonise, and we're more than happy to meet you with any industry that wants to do that. For example, we've had a number of beneficial conversations with the steel industry about their decarbonisation journey, and I'm more than happy to do that for any industry in Wales that wants to go on that journey.

Luke Fletcher AS: With over three quarters of all Welsh land being comprised of farmland, it's important that we utilise the products from this land on our journey to net zero. There is no product more natural than sheep's wool. Unfortunately, the price of a fleece of wool sits at around 20p—a price that is dwarfed by the £1.40 it costs to shear. I know that the Welsh Government pledged to use more wool in public buildings back in 2020, but we need to do more. The Irish Farmers Association called on the Irish Government to create incentives to ensure that domestic wool became the insulation of choice across their country. Would the Welsh Government be supportive of a scheme like this in Wales? And with the potential mammoth task of retrofitting the Welsh housing stock to be more energy efficient, will the Welsh Government explore the use of domestic wool as insulation in such a retrofitting programme to support our farmers and continue our journey to net zero?

Julie James AC: Yes. The very short answer to that is 'yes'. It's very much part of the optimised retrofit programme and the innovative housing programme. What those programmes do is they take a whole series of products and we build housing—new housing for the IHP and retrofitted housing for the ORP programme—and then we test out what the product has claimed against what it actually performs like. As I’ve said a number of times in this Chamber, we’re two years into the ORP, whereas five, I think I’m right in saying—maybe six—into the IHP programme, and that means we’ve got quite a lot of very good empirical data about how various types of things perform in conjunction with others. So, for example, for sheep’s wool, does that perform well sandwiched between two plasterboard walls, or two straw walls, or—? All that kind of thing. So, the programme is quite exhaustive. I’d encourage any Member who hasn’t visited one of the sites to do so. You’ll be given a comprehensive tour of the various types of tech. I visited one down in my colleague Mike Hedges’s constituency only yesterday, and it’s completely fascinating to see the data coming back. As a result of that, of course we will use that to increase the supply chains, help commercialise the product, develop a marketing strategy and get it into the main stream, as that’s the whole purpose of the programme.

New Housing Developments

Darren Millar AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure adequate infrastructure is in place where new housing developments are proposed? OQ58232

Julie James AC: Thank you, Darren. Placemaking principles underpin national planning policy. They require the provision of adequate infrastructure to support housing development and the promotion of quality places. Local planning authorities must take a strategic approach to the provision of infrastructure when planning for new housing, and the Government offers ongoing support to achieve this.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I do appreciate the position of the Welsh Government on this matter. I’ve been contacted by many residents in Colwyn Bay regarding a potential development in the Pwllycrochan area in the town, and, unfortunately, as you will appreciate, many of the schools in the town are bursting at the seams, there’s a lack of dentists, our healthcare facilities are struggling as well to cope with the demands that are placed upon them, and we’ve got drainage problems in and around this site too. I appreciate you can’t comment on individual planning cases, but would you consider strengthening the guidance that you issue to local authorities to make sure that they do take these things into account fully and properly as part of the planning process, so that, when new developments are proposed, and people do move into an area, they can enjoy the facilities that they expect to be able to enjoy, and shouldn’t have a situation where flooding is a particular challenge too?

Julie James AC: Yes, so, I write to planning authorities all the time reinforcing various parts of ‘Planning Policy Wales’. We also have a planning officers forum and I’m very shortly to meet—I’m afraid I just can’t remember off the top of my head when—with the new cabinet members who are responsible for planning right across local government, as all authorities have now formed their new cabinets. I’ll be meeting with the leaders and the relevant cabinet members to reinforce how we work and what they should do. We’ve also asked all of our planning authorities to look again at their local development plan process, and you’ll be aware that my colleague Rebecca Evans is bringing forth the regulations to enable the new corporate joint committees to do the regional strategic planning arrangements, which will allow us to put the infrastructure in place at that regional level. So, the local authority will have to work regionally to ensure that across the region there are sufficient—well, all of the issues that you just raised.
So, the policy is strong already; they need to have regard to it. Obviously, if they don’t have regard to it, then they’re subject to challenge. But obviously I can’t comment on the individual application.

Floods

James Evans MS: 7. What is the Welsh Government doing to support communities hit by recurring floods? OQ58208

Julie James AC: Thank you. Our funding objectives to reduce flood risk to communities are set out in our national flood strategy and the programme for government. This year, we announced a record level of investment of more than £214 million over the next three years to help protect at least 45,000 homes from flood risk.

James Evans MS: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I’ve heard accounts from many of my constituents really struggling to get insurance in subsequent years after flooding events. Some of these properties have not even been flooded, but they fall within the postcode area, and therefore are classed as high flood risk. These people have significantly less choice of insurance providers, often paying a lot higher for premiums, as there are few options for them to shop around. Those people are very fearful of even making very small insurance claims, for fear of actually losing their insurance altogether. So, what support can the Welsh Government give to these residents who are facing this impossible situation? Diolch, Llywydd.

Julie James AC: Yes, there is a specialist insurance scheme, which I’m sure the Member is aware of, called Flood Re, which allows people who have properties in flood-risk areas—and I appreciate that it’s even more frustrating if they haven't actually been flooded—to obtain insurance through the Flood Re programme. That's a programme in which a number of insurers come together to spread the risk, effectively, of that. We also assist local authorities to assist people who really struggle to get the insurance as well. And, of course, we have a number of income support projects to do that. So, there is a programme for that in place. I appreciate it can be more expensive, then, to insure your house, and that's a matter I'm afraid that we have no power to intervene in, as the insurance industry is not devolved. But we work closely with the UK authorities and we've had a number of summits in the past, where we've got the insurance companies to the table—a number of my colleagues have been involved in those summits—to make sure that the Flood Re programme is fit for purpose and isn't just completely unaffordable for those people who are affected.

Town-centre Regeneration

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 8. What is the Government doing to regenerate town centres in South Wales East? OQ58220

Julie James AC: Diolch. We have invested over £53.7 million in more than 100 projects that support the delivery of broader town-centre placemaking plans. We continue to invest and work in partnership with all sectors to make our towns and cities even better places to live, work and visit.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Minister. Many of the town centres within my region are struggling. A perfect storm of high business rates, the rise of online shopping and the cost-of-living crisis has made prospects look bleak for many traders. Despite investment of £900 million in Wales in the last eight years, one in seven shops on a high street remain empty, according to Audit Wales. They also say that:
'Powers that can help stimulate town-centre regeneration are not utilised effectively nor consistently.'
What plans has the Welsh Government to learn lessons from previous strategies to address this downward trend? Do future plans include any ideas to repurpose parts of town centres to provide more leisure accommodation and hot-desking opportunities for start-up businesses or people who may now be working from home permanently?

Julie James AC: Yes, absolutely, and this is a very difficult problem as the world changes around us. And so it's quite clear, isn't it, that many of us no longer shop in or go to town centres in the way that we used to in order to get ordinary goods and services. So, our 'town centre first' policy, which is embedded in the national planning framework, 'Future Wales', says that town centres should be the first consideration for all decisions on the location of workplaces and services, not just retail, so that we don't have out-of-town decisions made for everything you can think of, really, from the local college to entertainment venues and so on. That's to get the footfall and make the town a destination for people, which isn't just about retail.
You read out the list of challenges that we wrestle with every day. The town absolutely has to reinvent and reinvigorate itself into a place where people want to go, whether they want to go for an event or they want to go to socialise or to meet up with friends. So, it has to be a place that's welcoming and that has space that's family friendly and so on. During the pandemic, you'll know that we repurposed some road space for cafes and restaurants to make them more pleasant places to sit. It's a mystery, I think, to many of us why we don't do that in a more widespread way in Britain. We seem to feel that our weather is terrible, but anybody who has been to France in the winter will know that their weather is just as bad and they're still happily taking part in their outdoor spaces in their town squares and so on. So, we need to think again.
We've got a number of programmes across the Government designed to help local authorities do that thinking and to make sure that, when they make their decisions, as well as when we make our decisions, they think 'town centre first', to make sure that you get a concentration of services and people-pulls, if you like, into the town centre and you don't have this urban sprawl issue that, of course, knocks on to some of the other things we've discussed today about the use of peri-urban land and so on.

Flooding in the Monmouth Constituency

Peter Fox AS: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the risk of flooding in the Monmouth constituency? OQ58200

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peter. The programme for government commits us to reducing flood risk for over 45,000 homes over the lifetime of this administration. This year we are investing over £71 million through local authorities and Natural Resources Wales. This is the most funding ever provided in Wales in a single year.

Peter Fox AS: Thanks very much, Minister, for that response. It seems funny, on a beautiful sunny day, to be thinking about flooding, but, Minister, you'll know very well that, over the past few years, communities across Monmouthshire have experienced some devastating flooding, particularly during those winter months, with the examples of Skenfrith constantly being flooded, and Monmouth, where mobile homes were washed away—indeed, the Welsh Water plant flooded and there was no water to the town for several days, which we managed to overcome—and, of course, Llanwenarth, the area there, where the Usk broke its banks, but we know Natural Resources Wales won't adopt those assets going forward. I know how committed you are to this area, Minister, but how is the Welsh Government working with risk management authorities, local authorities and communities to prepare for this autumn/winter to help reduce the impact of potential flooding events on life, business and property? And with climate change increasingly influencing the weather, what action are you taking to futureproof defences in the likes of Monmouthshire against these serious concerns?

Julie James AC: Thank you, Peter. The national flood strategy sets out how we will manage the risk over the next decade, and underlines the importance we place on tackling flood risk and the growing impacts of climate change. This year, in conjunction with Plaid Cymru as part of the co-operation agreement, we announced a record level of investment of more than £240 million over the next three years to help us meet the programme for government commitments. We publish the annual flood and coastal programme online, and it features the list of schemes being funded and an accompanying map. We've also got an interactive map on DataMapWales, where the public can use the map to find out more detail about the schemes included within the programme for this year.
Monmouthshire County Council itself has had £360,000 to deliver eight different schemes benefiting 140 properties, which were some of the ones that you just mentioned as being impacted over the last couple of winter storms. And in co-operation with Plaid Cymru, again, we've commissioned an independent review of the local government section 19 and Natural Resources Wales reports into extreme flooding in the winters of 2020-21.
As you identified yourself, Peter, it's the responsibility of risk management authorities to identify the areas that require the flood alleviation works. The flood strategy makes that clear, and the decisions taken by NRW with regards to adopting privately owned defences has to consider the future funding implications. But we expect the RMAs and NRW to work together to put the plan in place, and then work towards protecting the communities at highest risk, obviously, in a descending hierarchy.

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

The next item is questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, and the first question today is from Ken Skates.

Investment in Clwyd South

Ken Skates AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on investment in Clwyd South through the twenty-first century schools programme? OQ58198

Jeremy Miles AC: The education estate in the area of Clwyd South benefited from an investment of over £20 million during the first wave of funding through the sustainable communities for learning programme, and will continue to benefit with a further £22 million through the current wave of investment. This includes Welsh-medium capital grant funding.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, thank you for your answer. That's superb news, and that £20 million has gone a long way in enhancing not just school estates, but also communities as a whole. I'd be extremely grateful if you could update Members and my constituents in Clwyd South on progress being made specifically in the community of Brymbo, in the north of the constituency, where a new twenty-first century school would be valued by all citizens, and particularly by learners.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that supplementary question, and also I'm aware that he has recently written to me in relation to this, and to confirm to him that a letter is about to be sent back in reply to that enquiry. Welsh Government officials are continuing to work with the local authority and the developers of the Brymbo site generally. As the Member is obviously very, very well aware, it's a site with a number of dimensions and a number of plans. In different ways, the school plan is one of those proposed developments, and officials are working to secure that comprehensive development of the site. My understanding is that good progress has been made on certain aspects of the land management, which are necessary in order for things to be able to move forward. So, that is progress, and I'll be reporting back in more detail to him in the letter that I'll send to him shortly.

Sam Rowlands MS: I thank the Member for Clwyd South for submitting this important and very timely question, because just last week I welcomed pupils from St Mary's Brymbo primary school to the Senedd here, and they took quite an interest in a lively, perhaps difficult Q&A at times, especially when I was asked about age restrictions on blades. But one of the specific questions, actually, was about the twenty-first century schools programme, which I was quite impressed that they had knowledge of. Obviously, it's important for them and their school. It became clear to me in the Q&A with those children from the school that more needs to be done to accelerate and see progress in the programme, especially at Brymbo. So, in light of this, Minister, I'd like to join the calls of the Member for Clwyd South and ask what assurances you can give me that this school is a priority for the programme, and what discussions you are having personally with Wrexham County Borough Council to facilitate progress of the programme there. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Sam Rowlands for that. As I said in my answer to Ken Skates, my officials are working with the authority on this site. It has a number of dimensions. School development is one aspect of that. But, there has been good progress on a number of the key elements required for that to progress, which I'm happy to report. I congratulate him on engaging the pupils in his region on the potential of the school build programme. I think that there are good opportunities, in particular in relation to the net-zero schools of the future, to embed that learning in the curriculum itself, and to use the construction of the school as a teaching tool in its own terms.

Medical Training through the medium of Welsh

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about training prospective doctors through the medium of Welsh at Bangor medical school? OQ58233

Jeremy Miles AC: I have had discussions with the Minister for Health and Social Services and I know, through those conversations, that she, in conversation with Bangor, has set out our expectations around the Welsh language provision. The Welsh language is a core consideration for Bangor, who are actively engaging on increasing Welsh-medium provision as they look to develop and implement the new curriculum.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I asked the health Minister here in the Siambr recently how the new medical school in Bangor could help to achieve the excellent 'More than just words' policy, but I do have to say that I was disappointed by the response that I received. That's why I am continuing with this theme with you today. From what I understand, there are very few Welsh speakers training at the medical school in Bangor at present, and that is also disappointing.
Do you believe that adequate targets have been set to recruit Welsh speakers for the medical training programme in Bangor? Will you come back to me, please, with a full explanation about how you intend to improve the situation if what I understand is correct? We have an excellent opportunity with the establishment of the new medical school to set targets to support the principle that we need an appropriate Welsh-medium workforce to meet the principles of 'More than just words', and of course the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy.

Jeremy Miles AC: I'd be more than happy to write to the Member with more details on the further question that she has asked. As she will know, an evaluation has taken place of the 'More than just words' plan, and the Minister intends to make a further statement over the next few weeks on the next steps that will result from the work that the Marian Wyn Jones committee carried out on our behalf recently.
So, without going into detail on that, it is clear that a bilingual workforce is one of the priorities for the future in terms of 'More than just words' and that we need to move away, perhaps, from a framework to using policy as something that is more proactive and can drive progress, in a way that I'm sure the Member would welcome. Supporting and developing the Welsh language skills of the current workforce and the future workforce is a core part of that, and there will certainly be a role for the medical school in Bangor to play in that.

Darren Millar AC: I absolutely concur with the points that have been made by Siân Gwenllian about the need to make sure that we've got doctors coming through the system who are proficient in the Welsh language.
It's also really important, of course, that those who are in the education workforce, teaching, who do have Welsh language skills are able to continue to use them. I raised in the Senedd yesterday a situation in a further education institution, where there are courses currently delivered through the medium of Welsh, in a largely Welsh-speaking community and area in southern Denbighshire, and those are going to be relocated to the coast, where there are fewer Welsh speakers, and where the demand for those courses will be different. It's going to severely disadvantage those young people who want to take advantage of the opportunity to continue to learn through the medium of Welsh when they go into post-16 education.
What are you doing to make sure that, where we do have tutors, teachers and others in the education workforce who are able to currently deliver in Welsh, that those opportunities aren't diminished as a result of silly decisions, frankly, by further education institutions and, indeed, some schools too?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I'm not going to comment on the particular decision, because obviously I'm not in a position to do that, but as he knows from the First Minister's answer yesterday, I will follow that up. We passed the third stage of a piece of legislation yesterday, which, in the particular context—the FE context—in which he frames the question, certainly yesterday and I think he was making the same point today, will, I think, see a step change in the provision of further education through the medium of Welsh. Obviously, one of the challenges has been making sure we have a workforce that is able to do that, and he will be aware, of course, of the plan that we brought forward to increase the educational workforce generally in Wales for those who are able to teach through the medium of Welsh.
In my discussions with further education colleges in all parts of Wales, there is absolutely a recognition that we need to do more and an enthusiasm to work together to do that, and so I look forward to doing that with them and I'll take up the point that he's raised specifically. Thank you.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Llywydd, and first of all I'd like to thank our local authorities for their efforts to find educational placements for children from Ukraine. Every local authority has ensured that all Ukrainian children have access to education. This includes, according to the latest information, 73 Ukrainian children in Welsh-medium schools or bilingual schools here in Wales.
What's excellent about our language is that it belongs to everyone. It can be learnt and loved by anyone from any background, as is the case here. But learning our language can be difficult, not least for those who have been displaced by war. So, Minister, can you outline what additional support you have provided to Welsh-medium teachers providing excellent education to these children whilst they are guests in our country?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, it has been a priority for us to ensure that Welsh-medium education is available to those who want to take advantage of it from Ukraine, and we've ensured, in terms of children and adults, that there is access to Welsh language lessons, and we've worked with Parents for Welsh Medium Education to ensure that that is possible, and the resources that are available bilingually ensure that that is accessible to them. I'd like to see more and more children from Ukraine choosing Welsh-medium education if that's what they want to do, and we need to ensure that there is support for schools to be able to provide that.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you for that, Minister, and I'm sure that Ukrainians the length and breadth of Wales will appreciate that answer and your support.
In terms of Welsh-medium education, I'd like to thank you for answering a letter I wrote to you about what appears to be the prioritisation of Welsh-medium education over English-medium education. You will know of offers of free transport to pupils from Welsh-medium schools but not English-medium schools. In your response, you note that local authorities have the responsibility for making their own education arrangements. However, Government guidance on the Welsh language, in the context of the Welsh in education strategic plans, encourage local authorities to discuss their individual needs with the Welsh Government. If the guidance is correct, why then is the Welsh Government approving Welsh in education strategic plans that create an imbalance in the support available?

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't think we are doing that.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Okay. Thank you. But from the response in the correspondence from the Minister, I do think that we need to look at this again. I'm more than happy to bring further questions on the issue.
Minister, I'm sure you will be aware of my long and and gratifying membership of the federation of young farmers clubs, and I'd like to declare an interest here. The organisation is immersed in the traditions of rural communities in Wales, and has a huge impact on the development of many young people across our country. Youth organisations such as young farmers are important in delivering the ambitious objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050'. They encourage the learning and development of language skills in the community, and add to the hard work of our schools. Although I am aware of the Welsh Government's support for young farmers clubs, through funding for a Welsh language officer working on a full-time basis, I'm eager to know whether other organisations, such as the Scouts or the army cadets, are offered similar resources. Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I don't know what the specific budget for the other organisations that the Member mentions is, but of course we do have a scheme of financial support for various voluntary organisations, third sector organisations, and other youth organisations. We are currently looking to review grants to promote the Welsh language in general. An external organisation has been appointed to look at that particular review. One of my priorities, as you know, as a Minister, is to ensure that we do all we can to increase not just the number of people learning Welsh, but also opportunities to use the Welsh language and to ask our partners to look at ways of empowering people to use the Welsh language in our communities. So, that work will conclude in due course. It will be an opportunity for us to look again at the grant scheme in general, but certainly the work done by various organisations, of the kind that the Member mentioned in his questions, is very important.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Llywydd. Prynhawn da, Weinidog. Wales's level of research and innovation investment is significantly below that of the UK and EU averages, and this picture will get worse as Welsh universities are disproportionately disadvantaged by the losses of EU structural funding given the high level of historical dependency on that funding. By now, gross expenditure on research and innovation in Wales is one of the lowest of 12 UK regions. So, given this, the Welsh Government needs to address this huge gap in funding that will endanger our research and innovation capability. So, why has the Welsh Government abandoned the strategy suggested by Professor Graeme Reid’s reivew to address this very situation? Can the Minister tell me why the Welsh Government has abandoned this strategy aimed at the long-term transformation and support of the research and innovation landscape in Welsh higher education institutions? Diolch.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, this policy area is not mine; it's my colleague Vaughan Gething's, who's made a statement recently in relation to the Government's response to the Reid review. Part of that is about the implementation of a number of the points that Professor Reid recommended for us to take in that review, including in relation to opening an office specifically in London to access some of the other opportunities that arise there and the increase in quality research funding, which we have increased in excess, as I recall, of that which Professor Reid recommended. But there are a number of other contexts to the Government's response to the Reid review, which my colleague Vaughan Gethingoutlined in a recent statement. So, I refer the Member to that.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you. School reorganisation in the Pontypridd area has been a contentious issue for years now. One of the main concerns is the closure of Ysgol Gynradd Gymraeg Pont Siôn Norton inCilfynydd, which will mean that the childrenliving in Ynysybwl, Coedycwm, Glyncoch, Trallwng and Cilfynydd will have to travel miles further to receive Welsh-medium education. Campaigners presented evidence to Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council of how damaging this is to Welsh-medium education, encouraging the council to open a new Welsh-medium school on a site in Glyncoch. This afternoon, the council's cabinet has approved a new English-medium school on this very site and refuses to introduce a Welsh-medium stream in that school.
To rub salt into the wound, the report that went to cabinet said that this new school would improve the provision of English-medium education in the area and increase capacity. From where will these new pupils come if not from Welsh-medium education? The Welsh Government will fund 81 per cent of the cost of the new school. What steps are being taken by you to ensure that the Government doesn't continue to fund such schemes that undermine Welsh-medium education in areas where there is great need for progress, if we are to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers? Do you share my concern about this situation?

Jeremy Miles AC: In terms of the strategic plans and every local authority in Wales, I'll be making a statement as to where they are, following the reviews that will happen within the next few weeks, before the end of term, and that includes the plans of RCT council. What I've said in the past is that it's important that we ensure that not just the number of those learning Welsh increases, but that geography—the language distribution and access to Welsh education—is also important in light of those plans in the future. And I'll want to see an increase in Welsh-language provision when looking jointly at increases in the English-medium schools estate.

Question 3 [OQ58207] has been withdrawn. Question 4, Joel James.

The Consortia Model

Joel James MS: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the role of the consortia model in schools? OQ58228

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes. Regional consortia support schools to improve, including through professional learning, direct engagement and facilitating school-to-school working. I'll be publishing school improvement guidance next week, setting out how the Welsh Government expects regional consortia to support school improvement under the Curriculum for Wales.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister. I was recently following the events of the National Association of Headteachers Conference in Telford, and my interest was peaked by a motion put forward by NAHTCymru, which remarked that the quality of service provided by the consortium model has been, to date, inequitable, and for many schools it has been entirely inadequate. The motion by NAHT Cymru went further, and wanted to see the development of an accountability structure for Wales that supports the reformed curriculum and twenty-first century learning, and also that there was no further expansion, additional layers, or extra bodies created that could take away already limited funding and resources, away from the core purpose of schools and front-line education. With this in mind, Minister, what consideration have you given to reforming the consortia model, in light of these criticisms, and to develop a fit-for-purpose accountability structure in Wales that supports twenty-first century learning? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for that question. I don't accept the funding takes money away from the school system; the funding is there in order to support the school improvement programme that we have right across Wales. And the majority of the funding that is made available to the regional consortia is delegated directly to schools, rather than being retained by the consortia themselves.
On the broader point that the Member makes, I think he's basing, or perhaps NAHT were basing some of their reflections on the thematic report from Estyn recently into the regional consortia and local authority support for curriculum design, which described the consortia as demonstrating the curriculum design progress and stages of curriculum development, developing stronger approaches to supporting collaboration between primary and secondary schools, and generally targeting support for schools that are causing concern, but also indicating that more work needed to be done in relation to maintaining consistency across the understanding of the quality of teaching and learning, for example.
So, I think that report was helpful, in that it identified a number of measures that we can take to further support our collective ambition for curriculum reform. My officials are working closely both with the consortia and, in those areas where there isn't a consortium, with the local authorities, to ensure that schools have the support that they need to prepare for the curriculum, and working also to develop a clearer model for capturing and understanding some of the information that is available in the system, in response to a specific recommendation that Estyn has made. And my officials have also ensured that the terms and conditions for grants to regional consortia for the coming financial year are clear and closely align to the priorities and requirements to support schools to implement the new curriculum.

Welsh Language Education in Alyn and Deeside

Jack Sargeant AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government expanding Welsh language education in Alyn and Deeside? OQ58227

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Jack. To support their plans to grow Welsh-medium education, the council has received approval in principle to establish a new primary school, through Welsh Government capital funding.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn, Weinidog. And I think it's clear that you agree that investing in Welsh-medium school buildings is going to be key if we really are truly to deliver and give all parents and children the chance of Welsh-medium education in Wales. Flintshire County Council have published an ambitious strategic plan to increase the number of Welsh speakers in Flintshire. I wonder if you could comment further, Minister, on how you will support this plan and this council's ambitions, and how you would invest in schools like Ysgol Croes Attiin Shotton, in my own constituency.

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I thank the Member for that supplementary question and for his use of the Welsh language in his initial question? Flintshire local authority have committed in their draft Welsh in education strategic plan to increase the percentage of learners in Welsh-medium education from the current 6.3 per cent to 15 per cent within the next 10 years. I recently announced, in March, 11 projects that will benefit from the Welsh-medium capital grant—a fund of about £30 million—and Flintshire will be one of the nine local authorities that will benefit from that funding. An element has already been allocated to establish a new Welsh-medium school, and the Buckley area is one of the locations being considered for that. And Flintshire will also put forward a business case to invest in Ysgol Croes Atti, to support the increasing demand for Welsh-medium education in the area, and I look forward to seeing that plan.

Sam Rowlands MS: Can I thank also the Member for Alyn and Deeside for submitting this question, as well, because I too have a keen interest in Welsh language education in Alyn and Deeside? And as stated by the Member, it is important that we enable Welsh language education and encourage more people to speak and learn Welsh.

Sam Rowlands MS: And since becoming a Senedd Member, I’ve had the pleasure of joining the Senedd’s Welsh language tuition scheme, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

Sam Rowlands MS: But, as we do know, Minister, much of the provision and delivery of Welsh language education is largely down to our local authorities working with schools, working with regional consortia, such as GwE in north Wales. So, in light of this, what assessment have you made of the collaboration between local authorities in north Wales working with GwE, working with schools, so that they can work as a team to deliver ambitions around Welsh language education in my region? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jeremy Miles AC: Can I just say how good it is to hear more Members speaking Welsh in the Chamber? Congratulations to Sam, and to Jack too.
Yes, it is very important, in order for us to see the progress that we want to see in Welsh-medium provision, and that there is equal access for all children in Wales to Welsh-medium education in any part of Wales, that the WESPs are ambitious, but also that there is good work happening between schools and local authorities and the consortia. And I'm sure that's happening in north Wales, as it is in all parts of Wales.

Support to Pupils after COVID

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to support pupils taking their exams this year given the impact of COVID? OQ58231

Jeremy Miles AC: A comprehensive package of support totalling £24 million is in place, which prioritises exam-year learners. Along with this, practical steps have also been taken, including adapting exam content, providing advanced information for learners and mid-point grade boundaries to make the return to exams as fair as possible.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for that response. I declare an interest as the father of one pupil who's studying A-levels, but I know that I speak on behalf of many other pupils and parents who are very concerned about the A-level exams this year in the context of COVID. These are students who've never sat an external exam before because their GCSEs and AS-levels were cancelled. Yet, a greater proportion than usual of their grade, and the entire grade for many, is wholly based on their exam performance this year. And some have missed one out of two exams due to be taken this summer because of COVID, which means that their grade will be decided on the basis of the one paper that they've managed to sit. It feels very unfair to many.So, what certainty can the Minister give that the appeals process will be strengthened in order to be able to deal swiftly and fairly with cases where there is a sense that the circumstances this year have led to pupils being treated unfairly?

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, it's been difficult for those pupils who haven't sat an external exam in the past, and that's understandable. And then concerns arising from exam papers that perhaps pupils hadn't expected, of course, also have an impact on them. And I am aware that, with few exam papers, including A-level maths, there were complaints and concerns about the content of some of those papers. The Member will certainly have seen the response of the WJEC on that, and any complaint made to them will be subject to a thorough inquiry and a review of that paper.
There is one example of an English paper where content was missing, and clearly that was an error, and specific steps will be taken as a result of that, but it is possible to grade in a way that reflects the fact the content was missing, or reflecting the fact that some questions were more difficult than expected.
So, I will give the Member an assurance that the grading scheme can be looked at as those papers are marked. But, also, appeal arrangements will be able to deal with some of the other questions that arise, and, this year, we will also ensure that the cost of appeal won't be a barrier to those who might struggle to pay for that appeal, so that there is fairness within the system.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Russell George AC: Minister, this is an issue I know I've raised with you previously as well, in terms of the extra support that students need to be supported due to missing education over the course of the pandemic. But I would ask you to what extent the mechanisms that you've developed to offer that additional support will remain in place after the pandemic, for perhaps other means where students need additional support. I'm particularly thinking of the new curriculum with that in mind as well.

Jeremy Miles AC: I think that's a very good question. The Power Up campaign, as he knows from our previous exchanges and, I'm sure, his own experience, provides a package of revision support, but signposting for other support as well, as well as, in the case of this year, the adaptations to content for the exams specifically. It's a sort of comprehensive, if you like, one-stop shop. I think there are approaches from that that might be beneficial into the future, in particular some of the well-being approaches, because what we obviously know is that the pressures that exist for learners this year will not simply disappear for learners next year. So, we will be looking creatively at how we can maintain some of those resources. Some of them obviously lend themselves to being available into the future in any case; some are more specific to the exams for this summer. But, just to assure the Member, we are looking at what we can do with that to make it more widely available into the future as well.

Vocational Education in Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the delivery of vocational education in Pembrokeshire? OQ58214

Jeremy Miles AC: A range of vocational education opportunities are available at all levels to suit our learners inPembrokeshire. Vocational qualifications play a vital role in delivering the skills and training that our learners need to address the demands of our economy.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response. Minister, I recently visited Haverfordwest County AFC with my colleague Laura Anne Jones to learn more about their pre-apprenticeship programme, which is delivered by Achieve More Training. The programme provides local opportunities for young people in Pembrokeshirewho want a career in education, sport or leisure, and helps to meet the skills gap in those sectors. So, Minister, will you join me in applauding Haverfordwest County AFC on their work to support and nurture young people by delivering apprenticeships in Pembrokeshire? And can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support such initiatives?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, I'd be very happy to join the Member in his congratulations to the college, and I'm looking forward to being with him tomorrow in Pembrokeshire College, where we'll have an opportunity to talk to many of the young learners there—and the advantages they're able to take of the range of opportunities that are available there as well. As he will know, in terms of our approach to apprenticeships, we are fully committed to increasing our apprenticeship opportunities across Wales, including obviously in Pembrokeshire. And, over the next three years, we'll be investing £366 million to deliver 125,000 apprenticeships across Wales, and we are working with Business Wales, the Skills Gateway for Business team and a range of others, to make sure that there's an efficient service available to employers looking to recruit an apprentice, so we'll make that process as smooth and as accessible to as many of our young learners as possible.

GCSE Examinations

Laura Anne Jones AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the preparation for summer GCSE examinations? OQ58218

Jeremy Miles AC: In addition to the announced adaptations to exam content and grade boundaries, a £24 million support package was put in place, including the Lefel Nesa/Power Upcampaign. This investment has provided learners with information, exam resources, hints and tips to help them prepare for the 2022 exam season.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. It's following on from a question that you had earier from Rhun, actually, about preparations for the exams this summer, considering that there were very concerning multiple reports that set texts had been missing off A-level English literature, as you've outlined already, and that pupils had unexpected content—that was in maths, with the difficulty, as you've already outlined, so I won't go over it. But what assurances can you give learners today that those lessons have been learnt by the examination board, and that we won't have repeat mistakes from the exam board this time for GCSE learners? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: I've obviously met with the exam board and with Qualifications Wales, as I do regularly, and have discussed this summer's exam season as part of our discussions generally. Learners this year have faced a particular set of challenges, being the first cohort perhaps not to have sat any external exams, but facing them for the first time this year. Clearly, as I was saying in the earlier answer, learners will feel very anxious as a consequence of that. You will have seen the response that the WJEC has given specifically on the question of examined content. Just to repeat the point, alongside the overall system-wide adjustment to the grades, which is the mid point between 2019 and 2021—that sort of overall adjustment—it is also possible to adjust grade boundaries on papers to reflect the content and the overall performance on that paper, which obviously captures some of the points that you were making. So, just to give that assurance. That set of decisions is made when the marking of the paper itself happens, so it can take into account the sorts of issues which the Member has raised. I do understand that learners are anxious, but I want to give them that assurance that there is a mechanism in the system that can respond to that.

Further Education

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 9. How is the Government encouraging children in South Wales East to embark on further education? OQ58221

Jeremy Miles AC: The 2022-23 settlement sees the highest level of investment in further education in recent history. We recognise that more learners are choosing to stay in post-16 education. Through the budget, we will ensure that learners in post-16 education are offered the best possible support, in particular following the impact of the pandemic.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: The vast majority of my region is made up of working-class communities where the cost-of-living crisis is being felt most acutely. The announcement last week that interest rates on student loans would be capped at 7.3 per cent to prevent them rising to 12 per cent was a mercy, but a very small one at that. An interest rate of 7.3 per cent is still extortionate and off-putting. I fear this huge interest rise on student loans will deter many young people from working-class families from fulfilling their potential and attending university. This may only serve to increase the attainment gap between the haves and the have nots, something NUS Cymru has already spoken out about. How is the Welsh Government reacting to the latest developments in student loan interest rates, combined with the added pressure brought on by the cost-of-living crisis, to ensure that kids from working class families are not discouraged from entering higher education?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank the Member for his point. It's a really important question. He might have seen some of the remarks I made last week in particular about access to all kinds of education for young people from perhaps some of our most disadvantaged backgrounds. For the first time this year, and in each subsequent year, we will be able to provide—obviously, subject to the consent of the individual—for example, data through UCAS on the free school meals eligibility of individual learners to enable contextualised offers to be made.
He's making a slightly different point about the costs of going to university. I agree with him; the measures that we see the UK Government taking are a great concern, as well as some of the changes they are mooting in relation to requiring different grade thresholds for GCSE, which I think are regressive and have no place in any policy that is based on widening access to university.
As he may know, although the ability to fund student finance is devolved to Wales, some of the choices we make are constrained by our ability to be able to liaise with HMRC and the Student Loans Company, which are not, obviously, devolved. We continue to have in Wales the most progressive student finance support package of any part of the UK in terms of the mix between loans and grants, but also—which is not very often remarked upon—in Wales, as soon as you start to repay your debt, you immediately get a £1,500 discount on your repayment, which is the only part of the UK in which that happens.
But, I take very seriously the point that he's made. Whatever we can do, we will do. Obviously, we are committed to our progressive system here in Wales. On the point of interest rates in particular, what I would say is that that doesn't affect the monthly outgoing, it's the length of the loan that that affects. I don't diminish for a second that it's a very important point, but in terms of the immediate affordability, it won't have that immediate increase on the monthly outgoing. But, it's an important point, as it does extend the cost of tuition overall.

Volunteering Opportunities

Heledd Fychan AS: 10. How is the Welsh Government supporting learners who have missed vital volunteering opportunities as a result of the pandemic? OQ58219

Jeremy Miles AC: Education-based volunteering is a critical component in helping create a volunteering society engendering volunteering habits in young people. We continue to support third sector infrastructure organisations and national grant schemes in order to improve access to volunteering opportunities for young people.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister. You will be aware that, in 2021, ColegauCymru commissioned a report that noted that many learners who volunteer since 2020 have missed out on practical opportunities to apply their learning, with the majority coming from sports courses. Given that Volunteers Week happened at the beginning of this month, do you agree, Minister, that we must ensure that these opportunities are more broadly available to learners—I understand that there is work ongoing—and that it's important not only to achieve educational aims and to contribute to communities, but also to support mental health and well-being of learners? If so, how can we ensure that more of these opportunities are available to them?

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you to Heledd Fychan for asking that question. We saw during the pandemic an increase of almost 4,500 young people, representing more than 20 per cent of new registrations, on the Volunteering Wales platform, which is very encouraging, I think. Volunteering is an important way of demonstrating the values of citizenship, and it's an important part of the community democratic process, too. I meet regularly with third sector voluntary organisations through the WCVA, to discuss volunteering opportunities and how they are available to young people. Welsh Government has made it a priority to support the volunteering sector with a package of significant financial support, and my colleague the Minister for Social Justice has established a cross-sectoral group to lead and to look at what more could be done to explain the value of volunteering, including to our young people.

3. Topical Questions

Joyce Watson AC: We move on to item 3, topical questions. There were no topical questions accepted.

4. 90-second Statements

Joyce Watson AC: We'll go on to item 4, 90-second statements. I call on Elin Jones.

Elin Jones AC: A number of you may not have noticed this week’s most important event, but on Monday, A Repertory of Welsh Manuscripts and Scribes c.800-c.1800was launched by Dr Daniel Huws and presented to the First Minister. Dr Huws has been working on this project since his retirement from the national library 30 years ago. This month, Daniel Huws will turn 90. He was supported by a joint project between the Centre for Advanced Welsh and Celtic Studies at the University of Wales and the national library, and specifically by Professor Ann Parry Owen, Dr Maredudd ap Huw, Glenys Howells and Gruffudd Antur.
The three volumes weigh 5 kg and contain over 1,500 pages. The first volume of the repertory contains concise descriptions of approximately 3,300 Welsh manuscripts. Volume 2 features biographical information on approximately 1,500 scribes. Volume 3 contains around 900 images of the handiwork of some of the most important scribes.
These volumes are a masterpiece. They were researched, designed, edited and published mainly in Ceredigion, but they now belong to scholarship worldwide. Some might say that few people will leaf through these pages, but I can say that of the approximately 60 Members in the Chamber yesterday afternoon as we voted on legislation, at least one Member was reading through volume 2 by Daniel Huws. I’ll leave it to you to guess who.
I thank Daniel for this magnum opus that will tell the story of Wales and Welsh people to the world for centuries to come and forever.

Darren Millar AC: This week marks Armed Forces Week across the United Kingdom, a week that brings together our armed forces community, including servicepeople, their families and the organisations that support them. It provides an opportunity for people across the country to show our appreciation for the work that they do. As part of the week, we held Wales's Armed Forces Day in the city of Wrexham on Saturday, and Scarborough will be hosting the UK Armed Forces Day, which will take place this coming Saturday.
Wales, of course, has a proud association with our armed forces. In mid Wales, we have the headquarters of the army, the base of 160th (Welsh) Brigade, and a secure base now, thanks to a decision by the UK Government. And in north Wales, at RAF Valley, every single Royal Air Force pilot, jet pilot, is trained. Here in Cardiff, just down the road, we have HMS Cambria, Wales's only Royal Navy reservist unit. But today, we mark Reserves Day, an opportunity to show our appreciation for armed forces reservists who play a vital but often underappreciated role. There are more than 2,000 reservists in Wales who volunteer to balance their day jobs and a family life with a military career. And as the recent pandemic has shown us all, they are ready to serve when they're called upon.
So, as we mark this Armed Forces Week, and today as Reserves Day, let's renew our commitment to all those who are serving, or who have served, and work with the UK and Welsh Governments, our veterans commissioner, and others to give them the support that they so richly deserve.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Peter Fox AS: Yesterday marked Global Motor Neurone Disease Awareness Day, and I'd like to thank the many Members of the Senedd who yesterday joined with me in meeting people living with and affected by MND on the steps of the Senedd to raise awareness of this cruel disease. And those there very much appreciated you being there.
It's pleasing that significant changes have happened in Wales over the past two years, but more needs to be done quickly. MND sufferers desperately need more investment in areas that will better their quality of life. They need to see more investment in MND research in Wales, improvements to care and services, and there's the need for an all-Wales lead consultant neurologist for MND. And it's also important that local authorities need to find ways to fast-track home adaptations to enable those with MND to live with dignity and not suffer in what is already a terrible time in their lives. MND is truly devastating for both those living with it and their families, but this is where we, the Welsh Parliament, can make a difference by ensuring that their lives are not made even more difficult. In fact, each and every one of us in this Chamber, as Welsh parliamentarians, has a moral obligation to ensure that the voices of those with MND are heard and listened to. After all, MND sufferers do not have time to waste and desperately need more support now.

5. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee Report—Fourth Report to the Sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9

The next item is a debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee report, the fourth report to the sixth Senedd under Standing Order 22.9. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Vikki Howells.

Motion NDM8034 Vikki Howells
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Considers the Report of the Standards of Conduct Committee— Fourth Report to the Sixth Senedd laid before the Senedd on 15 June 2022 in accordance with Standing Order 22.9.
2. Endorses the recommendation in the report.

Motion moved.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd. As the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee, I formally move the motion.
The committee considered the report from the commissioner for standards in relation to a complaint made against Eluned Morgan MS regarding her conviction for speeding offences. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration, and our report sets out the committee's judgment as to the sanction that is appropriate in this case.
The facts relating to the complaint and the committee's reasons for its recommendation are set out in full in the committee's report. A number of other matters arose during the consideration of this complaint, which the committee thinks appropriate to note as matters of principle relating to the conduct of Members generally, and I draw Members' attention to those. In particular, I draw Members' attention to the commissioner's comments about Members informing him of convictions for any offence. The committee would like to reiterate that this is not only good practice, but also in line with the transparency principle in the code of conduct and helps to maintain the high standards that we have set for ourselves. The motion tabled invites the Senedd to endorse the committee's recommendation.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'd like to thank the standards committee for their work and for their consideration of the standards commissioner's report. I'm aware that the role of elected representatives is to lead by example. There's an expectation on all of us to uphold the highest standards, and, throughout this process, I've accepted that I failed to do so through my actions in this case. I'd like to place on record in the Chamber my sincere remorse and deep regret for my actions and I confirm that I pleaded guilty and accepted the court's judgment. I apologise unreservedly and wholeheartedly to you, my fellow Senedd Members, and to the people of Wales for the embarrassing position that I've put myself and this respected institution in, and I want to say sorry to anyone who has been affected by my actions.

Eluned Morgan AC: I am aware of the responsibility upon us all as Members to lead by example, and I accept that I haven't maintained the standards required of us as Members of the Senedd in this case. I want to make it clear in the Senedd today that I apologise to you all, my fellow Members, and to the people of Wales for the unfortunate situation that I have put myself in, and I wish to say that I am sorry for any embarrassment that I have caused to the institution and to anyone who has suffered as a result of my actions. I wish to confirm that I pleaded guilty to the charges of speeding and have accepted the court's decision. Thank you, Llywydd.

Does the Chair wish to reply?

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank Eluned Morgan MS for her words here today. I'd also like to thank my fellow members of the Standards of Conduct Committee for their work on this matter and the clerking team for all of their hard work and professionalism in supporting our inquiry.

The proposal, therefore, is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion has been agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Empowering communities

The next item is the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv), and this debate is on empowering communities. I call on Luke Fletcher to move the motion.

Motion NNDM8018 Mabon ap Gwynfor, Luke Fletcher, Buffy Williams
Supported by Adam Price, Carolyn Thomas, Heledd Fychan, Huw Irranca-Davies, Janet Finch-Saunders, Jenny Rathbone, Joel James, Llyr Gruffydd, Mark Isherwood, Paul Davies, Peredur Owen Griffiths, Rhys ab Owen, Sam Rowlands, Sarah Murphy, Sioned Williams
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes that Wales is home to thousands of local community groups, with hundreds running significant assets that make their communities better places to live.
2. Recognises the huge contribution community groups have made in supporting local people through the challenges of the pandemic.
3. Notes that the previous Welsh Government agreed with the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's recommendation that it should 'develop a programme of empowering communities across Wales with the voluntary sector, acting as an enabling state for community action'.
4. Notes the important role that local authorities often play in ensuring community ownership of assets, and working in partnership with community groups and other organisations to ensure successful community venture.
5. Notes the recent IWA report, Our Land: Communities and Land Use, which finds that Welsh communities are the least empowered in Britain and calls for a major shake-up of community policy in Wales.
6. Further notes the Wales Cooperative Centre’s recently published report, Community ownership of land and assets: Enabling the delivery of community-led housing in Wales.
7. Notes that Wales, unlike Scotland and England, has no legislation giving communities the right to buy local assets of community value.
8. Believes that enabling community groups to retain local buildings and land as community facilities and supporting them to develop active and engaged communities is key to building a more prosperous, equal and greener Wales.
9. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) coproduce a communities strategy to develop an enabling state for community action;
b) explore the legal options for establishing a community right to buy in Wales.

Motion moved.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Llywydd. In a report published this year, the Bevan Foundation found that Wales has some of the weakest provisions for community rights of ownership and control in the UK. Another report found that communities face a now arduous and demoralising process, and that it was extremely likely that the situation in Wales has led to many assets being permanently lost to communities. Assets such as playing fields, historic buildings and areas of stunning natural beauty can end up in disrepair or disuse as a result of a poor and complicated system. As a country with a proud history of championing our communities, we cannot allow this to continue.
The COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent lockdowns meant that we all got to know a little bit more about our local respective towns, cities and villages. We were more aware of that nice little path around the corner, the new field down the road to take the dog to, or the playing fields that we hadn't visited since we were children. Despite the many wonderful sites across the country, we must be proactive in ensuring that they stay well maintained and well used within their communities. One of the best ways to ensure that the local park or whatever it may be is looked after is to place it in the hands of the community. After all, who is better placed to ensure a community asset is given the care and attention it needs and deserves than the community itself?
Following the pandemic, the latest 'Wellbeing of Wales' report showed a marked increase in the number of people who feel they can influence decisions in their local area. Across Wales, we saw a community-level response to COVID, which led to numerous examples of improved understanding, decision making and collaboration between communities and public bodies. We live in a nation where people are proud of their communities and want to be involved in their futures. But, despite being a country full of proud communities, we're yet to reach a position where the support is available to empower these communities. The recently published Institute of Welsh Affairs report, 'Our Land: Communities and Land Use' offers several recommendations that, if enacted, would allow residents to take control of their local area and ensure a strong and empowered future for their community, as well as the Wales Co-operative Centre report, 'Community ownership of land and assets: enabling the delivery of community-led housing in Wales'. However, the system that we currently find ourselves in is not fit for purpose. The community asset transfer system is one that is more suited to local authorities' cost cutting rather than community empowerment.
We don't need to look far for examples of community empowerment supported by Governments. The Scottish Land Fund has allowed a number of communities across Scotland to take control of local assets and mould them into something fit for local people. This is what we need in Wales. That's why we are calling on the Government to co-produce a community strategy, to develop an enabling state for community action, and for the Government to explore the legal options for establishing a community right to buy in Wales. For too long, our communities have been underpowered, at the mercy of outside interests. What we are proposing—Mabon, Buffy and I—is that we put the power back into the hands of the people. It's as simple as that.

Sam Rowlands MS: I thank Mabon ap Gwynfor for submitting today's motion, also Buffy Williams and Luke Fletcher for co-submitting. In addition to this, of course, I was pleased to be able to record my support for today's motion, and, as I'm sure Members will be well aware, I never miss an opportunity to talk about our local communities, in particular empowering them, as is so, so important, as already outlined initially by Luke Fletcher just then. But, in contributing in today's debate, I'd like to focus on two key areas that I think are crucial in empowering our local communities before looking to address the two main action points in today's motion.
And the first point really is the importance and role of our councillorsand councils in making this ambition a success. As I've stated time and time again in the Chamber, it's councillors who often know their communities best and often are true advocates of their communities, because they're democratically elected to do so. And it's councillors who need to be given the levers and power to deliver the change as needed in the community, to truly empower them and the residents that they represent.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Sam Rowlands MS: It states in point 4of today's motion that 'local authorities often play' an important role
'in ensuring community ownership of assets,'
whilst working with community groups. Now, Luke Fletcher's point was well made in terms of that some of the existing powers perhaps aren't as transparent or easy for community groups to engage with as they should be.
But also, as outlined in point 2, it's these community groups and councillors who really went above and beyond during the COVID-19 pandemic, and we can't lose that enthusiasm. We really should be harnessing that. It's crucial that our locally elected champions are trusted and fully supported, if we want to maximise that enthusiasm that we've seen over recent years.
Secondly, when talking about empowering communities, I just want to mention the importance of having pride of place, being proud of the place that we work and live in. As we sadly know, many of our communities are in desperate need of some very basic improvements and perhaps don't receive the service that they deserve to have that pride in the place that they live in. Again, through the pandemic, didn't we, we saw a renewed sense of community and pride in our local areas, as Luke Fletcher already outlined—many people using our local parks, appreciating natural scenery, often taken for granted for a long time, but suddenly coming to life as we all took our one-hour daily exercise down the local footpath. Seeing those small improvements in the place that we live in makes such a difference, and a real sense of ownership also makes such a difference. We see the improvements elsewhere by seeing the physical improvements in the environment that we live in. We see communities flourish, that pride restored in the place that we live, and it's often community champions, our local residents, who are right at the heart of all this.
But in terms of the action points, as it were, in today's motion, the motion
'Calls on the Welsh Government to:
'a) coproduce a communities strategy to develop an enabling state for community action;
'b) explore the legal options for establishing a community right to buy in Wales.'
As you'd expect from me, a right to buy is something I certainly support in many different aspects. That's also why we on this side of the Chamber today are really happy to support today's motion, because, as we've outlined in our recent manifesto as Conservatives, we think that empowering local communities is really important, and being able to support them in protecting their local services is important as well. We've explored and thought about ideas around things like a community ownership fund, which perhaps could be within the thinking of Governments in the future as well. A community ownership fund would help local communities to buy facilities, such as a local pub, shop or library that needs saving, that perhaps is closing down, and just really empower those communities or groups to get hold of those things that are very important to their village or their town.
As I'm sure Members across the Chamber would agree, again, it's those local people, it's our residents that we serve at a very local level, who often know best what is needed for their area, but they haven't got the right powers and the tools at the moment to quickly enable them to do that—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Would you possibly take an intervention?

Sam Rowlands MS: Certainly, Rhianon.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you so much. Nobody would disagree with any of those sentiments—

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you very much.

Rhianon Passmore AC: —and comments, but my question, really, is: surely, empowering communities is about having the funding within those communities so that we have libraries and leisure centres and vibrant schools, and would you say that the austerity agenda, deliberate cuts to Wales, has diminished that capacity?

Sam Rowlands MS: You're exactly right; as I said, funding is an important element of this, and local authorities have a role to play in that. I think what we're talking about here, though, today, is actually assets, the ownership of things, not just going through local authorities, but at an even more local level, with community groups, anybody who sees something that they think makes a big difference to their community getting hold of that and actually doing a good job of running that facility.
But thank you for your opening comments there, Rhianon; I always appreciate being supported by you over there. I can't remember where I was up to in terms of what I was saying there; you threw me there.
But, in addition to these points just made then, empowering local communities also looks like local neighbourhood plans as well. I think, at times, our planning system, with all the legal restraints that it has and has to have, sometimes can miss out on that very local involvement with people having decision making about how things look and feel within their locality, how things look and feel in terms of of what is built around them as well.
So, just in closing today, it is a great opportunity, I think, for us as Members across the Senedd, across the political Chamber, to come together to recognise the importance of our local communities and support the aspiration of empowering them, as Rhianon so eloquently said. In light of this, I'd like to again thank Mabon for submitting today's motion, and I look forward to hearing many more contributions and hopefully be able to contribute myself further as the debate goes on. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I think this is a very important debate to make people feel that they have some control over their communities, when so much seems to be not in people's control. Therefore, it's really important that we equip communities with better tools to protect themselves from external interests with no stake in an area, who just want to monetise everything they can get their hands on.
Dom Phillips and Bruno Pereira paid with their lives trying to highlight the galloping destruction of the Amazon, the largest rainforest in the world. Tragically, the rule of law has been undermined or ignored, not least by the current Brazilian Government. Commercial interests—some commercial interests—know no bounds in the search for profit, untroubled by the impact on nature, the Amazonian Indians who have lived there for millennia, and the devastating impact that this is likely to have on the future of our planet collectively. It's an extreme example, but it's not an isolated incident, so I particularly want to focus on point 8 in the motion, about enabling communities to retain local buildings and land as community facilities.
I recently visited the site of the Llanishen and Lisvane reservoirs, which is on the border of Cardiff Central and Cardiff North, which will in a couple of years' time return to being a community asset open to the public. The amenity would have been completely lost were it not for the efforts of the community, spearheaded by the Reservoir Action Group, known as RAG, and a 10-year campaign to combat one of the largest American mulitinationals—Pennsylvania Power & Light—who wanted to turn it into housing because, obviously, that is much more profitable than being the custodian of a former water reservoir.
As soon as it was acquired from Welsh Water in 2004, Pennsylvania Power & Light set about kicking off the sailing club that was on the site, refusing permission to the fishing club and putting up huge barriers to prevent people getting on to the site to enjoy this very special site of special scientific interest, due to the presence of a wide variety of grassland fungi and the over-wintering birds that land on Lisvane reservoir.
So, Pennsylvania Power & Light, through its subsidiary, Western Power Distribution, were arguing that this amenity was no longer needed, and it was only the efforts of RAG that enabled it to become a listed building, and it took three public inquiries to defeat Pennsylvania Power & Light. They finally threw in the towel in 2010—no, I think a little bit later, in 2013, but not until they had already completely drained the Llanishen reservoir, which is a multimillion pound venture to refill and repair, given the strict restrictions around reservoirs, for good reasons. So, it is an irony that this asset is now back in the hands of Dŵr Cymru due to the efforts of the much-loved and long-lamented Carl Sargeant, who persuaded them to take back the site that they had sold off in the first place.
It will be a wonderful site, but if it wasn't for the real efforts of a very large-scale community campaign, we would simply not have this, and it's really been down to the community to protect it. So, it's really illustrating of just how determined people need to be and also the fact that the planning regime and the community asset regulations that exist in other parts of Britain are simply absent in Wales, and that needs to be rectified.
So, for current problems, there's a pub called the Roath Park in my constituency, on City Road. It is the last remaining Victorian-era pub on that road, and it's destined for demolition because it's cheaper to simply tear it down and put up some modern flats instead. I'm sure they'll be hideous. And instead, they could be amending this fine building to make dwellings for future use. So, there has to be an alternative to this. Cadw refuse to list it, and even had it been locally listed by Cardiff Council, that wouldn't have protected it.
So, we need to look again at how we can protect things in our communities that people value and want to preserve. And if people are there saying, 'We will take this on', then they shouldn't have people who just simply have the money and just want to make a quick buck to prevent them doing so. And if we don't do this, there's no way we're going to be able to develop the 15-minute city that's being developed in Paris and Nottingham and other places, which is the only way forward if we are going to meet our sustainability goals.

Heledd Fychan AS: As we all know, community groups play an important and vital role in their communities and I'd like to begin by thanking, from the bottom of my heart, every community group that is active in the region that I represent. And although a number of community groups receive support from local authorities, a number of them face challenges too. What I would like to see personally as a result of this motion is to make it easier for communities to take ownership of local assets of community value.
From October 2021 to April of this year, my office received 11 enquiries from community groups specifically seeking support with regard to the process of community asset transfer. In one example, a community group wants to save local playing fields for community use, while their local council, which owns the land, wants to sell the land for the construction of social housing. In the community group's experience, the council officials, who are meant to support the transfer of community assets, were compromised as the council had a firm view on the future of that particular parcel of land. Where was the support, therefore, for this group?
Indeed, land is regularly sold by councils without communities being aware or being given the opportunity to protect the land as a community asset. Many of these are small plots of land in current communities that have difficulties with a multiplicity of issues such as parking, access to electric-vehicle charging points, and, of course, with the cost-of-living crisis, they don't have a parcel of land to grow food locally. A community right to buy would require estates departments to engage with local communities regarding proposals to sell parcels of land and to engage with the communities to establish their interest and to decide how assets like these can be used to meet local needs.
Another group that has contacted my office has just secured a lease on their community asset, five years after beginning their discussions with the local authority. This lengthy process can place huge pressure on the volunteers who are part of community groups and can place much-needed funding at risk, as well as putting the future of the assets that communities are working so hard to save at risk, because we know that these assets will decline if the funding is not made available whilst they await a decision by the local authority.
So, the experience of communities that have contacted me is that some local authorities treat them as though they are commercial entities rather than a key part of the community that the authority is committed to serving. We must put some measures in place. The current system as it currently stands isn't working, and I'm grateful to Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this very important issue. After all, we all benefit if we empower our communities. We all benefit if historic buildings or parcels of land are used in a way that is beneficial to all of us. I'm very pleased to support this motion, but we also need to see action from Government on this. Thank you.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It's great to see so much support from across the Chamber. Community is, no doubt, important wherever you live in the world. I may be biased, but I think that community is extra special to people living in Wales. We are, by nature, an outgoing, kind and selfless people. Perhaps this is why we tend to seek common bonds through family, friends or place of birth, rather than profession, when we meet somebody for the first time. It is therefore jarring to hear from a much-respected think tank like the Institute of Welsh Affairs that communities in Wales are the least empowered in the UK. The pandemic shows just how much community spirit remains in our towns and villages, despite not having the conditions to thrive, like our counterparts in Scotland and England.
It's a strange anomaly that there is no community right to buy in Wales. Legislation was introduced by the Tories in England a decade ago. In Scotland, the protection for communities is even stronger. Here in Wales, nothing.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Will you take an intervention?

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Yes, certainly.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you very much, Peredur. You’re quite right to outline that, 10 years ago, the UK Government brought in community asset transfers, community right to buy, and really, it was a very good piece of legislation that we wanted to see here in Wales. In fact, I myself raised it numerous times when I was shadow Cabinet Secretary, as they were called then, for local government. And it’s fair to say that, in those 10 years, my colleague Mark Isherwood has also raised it. So, we as a group have raised this time after time after time. Would you not agree that we've wasted 10 years? And you have been in with the Labour Government over this time. Do you not think we've wasted time and we really need to have a robust question posed to the Welsh Labour Government to get on with it?

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I think it’s, as we’re calling it here today, time to do something about it, so it’s good to—[Interruption.]
Anyway. There will be many communities in Wales that have lost community assets over the last decade without the legislation. I can provide a recent example of somewhere that looks set to lose the only pub in a very small community. The people behind the campaign to save the pub have asked me not to identify them just because there’s a tiny glimmer of hope that things may go their way, and they do not want to jeopardise relations with the current owner of the pub. Despite having financial backing, a solid business plan and a heavy backing from the community, the efforts to save the pub have so far been unsuccessful, and the pub looks set to be sold on the private market. When told about Plaid Cymru’s effort to get community right to buy legislation in Wales, my contact from the campaign said, and I quote, ‘A community right to buy scheme? That would have been so helpful. We would own our pub by now and would be sitting outside it enjoying the sunshine.’ So, please, in the Government response to this debate, I hope I do not hear a line that says that there is no need for legislation, or at least, try telling that to the people I’m in contact with, who are fighting to save the pub and the only community hub for miles.
There are examples of buildings being rescued, restored and returned to community use. I had the pleasure of chairing a Finance Committee stakeholder event in Llanhilleth Miners Institute last week. This tremendous building, gifted to the people from the contributions of miners, is an amazing resource, and a venue for people in the local area and beyond. There are other examples, but some of these community assets have been saved for the benefit of the local residents despite the odds being stacked against them. Let’s make things easier for communities to preserve their heritage and retain facilities. They should get, at the very least, parity with their counterparts in Scotland and England.
I was reminded of the importance of this during a visit in my region a few months back. I’d gone to visit a constituent who was spearheading a campaign to restore a community asset that has great potential and could transform the area. She told me about her efforts to garner interest in the project with a stall in a nearby town centre. The apathy she found in the people she spoke to left her very upset. In her words, ‘So many people have given up.’ I fear that, unless we act soon and empower our communities, we will not only lose those people, but also the generations that follow. We cannot allow this to happen. Diolch.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer, and can I thank Members for tabling this important debate? Just also to say, in following on from many Members who’ve spoken today, that I’m also pleased to have the opportunity to recognise the thousands of community groups across Wales, and thank them for making such a difference to the life of their communities, which they support. And of course, many of these community groups are addressing inequality, tackling poverty, building confidence, self-esteem, and improving health and well-being. Many of these groups are already also managing community facilities, buildings and green spaces, which act as a focus for community action, and provide local access to vital services. And it's clear that community-owned and community-run assets can help to empower our communities, which is the headline of your debate today—empowering communities—but also to improve their resilience. Because it's quite clear that evidence is showing that communities with resources like community assets, strong partnerships and local advocates can actually be very resilient in terms of responding to the sorts of shocks that so many communities have experienced in recent years—not just the pandemic, but flooding, and now, of course, the cost-of-living crisis, a cost-of-living crisis that we have not seen for decades. And communities are responding to that.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, will you take an intervention?

Jane Hutt AC: Yes, of course.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you. Sorry, I was too late to speak on this item. I just want to clarify something—that we are talking about community facilities, which are really important. Because I do have a bit of an issue about the Conservatives believing that public services could be run by volunteers, and that passing on community facilities to voluntary groups, rather than being run by public funding, to cut public service costs, is not really a desirable policy. And I find that projects are not often sustainable without someone to lead on them and the backing of central funding. So, this is about community facilities, isn't it? I'm just trying to get that clarification. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: This is a complex area in terms of developing community policy, and I want to go on to that, in terms of what this will mean in terms of delivering those services at the sharp end, and also, recognising that there are barriers, and also that this is about working relationships. I'm very interested, for example, just in terms of the role that Flintshire County Council has played in working with their town and community councils very proactively—you may have been involved in your former role as a councillor—on asset transfer. Because the local authority, Flintshire, the local county voluntary council, groups seeking transfers, worked together. That's what we would want to see across the whole of Wales, and that actually does improve the chance, for example, in terms of facilities, to achieve a successful transfer with the local authority, supported by the county voluntary council, which, of course, we fund to play this role. And also, Flintshire has got a list of all its transferable assets on its website. That's accessible, and it invites bids from groups interested in taking on those assets.
I just want to move on to the fact that volunteers and community groups, as I said, have played a hugely important role in responding to the pandemic, in particular, and the fact that there are also voluntary and community groups—we have them in all our constituencies—who are playing a significant role, for example, in achieving a fair and green recovery. They're working at every level, often under their own initiatives, but engaging with the local authorities, town and community councils, but other landowners as well, particularly in terms of the fact there are so many action for nature groups and environmental groups across Wales.
Just to say, in terms of part of Wales's recovery from the pandemic, we've been working in partnership with the third sector partnership council, which I chair. There's cross-sectoral representation there from across community and voluntary third sector groups. I think the recovery plan is important, and it helps us as I respond to this debate, because as a result of the recovery plan and our response now to the cost-of-living crisis, we are taking the first steps in developing a communities policy. I think Luke Fletcher actually asked me that question in his opening comments, about how we are actually developing new co-productive ways of working with communities. Our communities policy gives us the opportunity, and also this debate, I would say, is a clear guide to that.
Because what we've said, and I spoke at the Gofod conference this morning about this, is that we're aiming for Welsh communities to be thriving, empowered and connected, so that they can rise to meet new challenges. 'Thriving' means that our communities have strong, sustainable foundations, can build on their assets, have the tools they need to deal with adversity and respond to new opportunities. 'Empowered' means that our communities are hardwired into decision making at every level, that they have the capacity not just to influence but to develop ways of working to identify their own assets, needs and priorities, and to make decisions and deliver solutions. I see someone waving at me.

Joyce Watson AC: Minister, can I point out that—I'm sorry, I missed you, Huw—Huw wants to make an intervention?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much for taking the intervention. I didn't want to speak in this debate, but I'm really pleased to support this debate today and to hear others speak, and it's great to hear the Minister talk about the engagement with the co-operative centre of Wales. Would she recognise that much of the motion here today, cross-party as it is, actually reflects very accurately the long-running campaigns by the Co-operative Party in Wales, and across the UK, in terms of empowerment, wealth building, ownership, and including the issue of exploring the potential for legislation? So, in her remarks, closing up, I wonder if she'd turn to that as well, in welcoming this debate today and the fantastic contributions we've had.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Huw Irranca-Davies. I'm really pleased you've made that intervention and recognised the principles not just of the Co-operative Party, which are very much hardwired into Welsh Government values and principles as well, because my third point is about being connected. And what do we mean by that? That communities can work effectively in partnership to co-produce the services and manage assets and the support that they need.
I will say, in coming to the conclusion of my response, that I welcome the recently published reports on community ownership from both the Institute of Welsh Affairs and the Wales Co-operative Centre, now Cwmpas. And I want to assure colleagues in the Senedd that communities, and community actions, and how we can support and empower them, are at the heart of the Welsh Government programme for government.
I just want to mention the importance of resource. The community facilities programme is providing grants to help communities buy, develop and improve community assets. I think you will all know what that money can mean in your communities, and to some of these community assets, buildings and green spaces. We have provided over £41 million in capital grants to 295 projects. There are so many of those projects, with £19.5 million through the community facilities programme over the next three years, so please encourage proposals and developments. I visited a few recently, such as, on Saturday, Railway Gardens in Splott, operated by Green Squirrel, which is such an excellent example of this—a diverse community working together, very intergenerational, community action, local business, culture, music and food. But, also, you've only got to visit the Dusty Forge centre in Ely, the ACE project, but also, getting money out to sporting venues, community centres, mosques, temples, as well as churches and chapels. Not all the assets are community owned, but so many of them are run by the community and with the community, and we're now moving towards ensuring that we can help these projects with investment in energy efficiency. There's the Abergavenny Community Trust recently—they want net zero; they've got the solar panels, and we helped fund that. And we've also launched a £5 million community asset loan fund, delivered for us by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action, complementing the CFP.
I've come to the end of the time that I've got to speak to you today, but I want to just say that, in terms of our third sector support, the WCVA, 19 county voluntary councils in Wales, third sector organisations, Cwmpas and the Development Trusts Association Wales are all helping us and looking at ways in which we can strengthen our commitment. Local authorities have a crucial role to play in terms of community asset transfers, where the asset owners are involved in the process before, during and after the transfer. [Interruption.]

Joyce Watson AC: You're just out of time.

Jane Hutt AC: Finally, can I just reassure you that the Welsh Government is supporting this motion today? I think it's the first step to us looking at a co-productive route to our new communities policy. Diolch yn fawr.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, temporary Presiding Officer.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Can I just say at the beginning of my contribution that we've got a number of the young citizens of Wales here? Welcome all; you might well be sitting here at some point in the future.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: It's a pleasure to close this debate today, and I'd like to thank Luke Fletcher for opening the debate so eloquently, and I thank everyone else who has contributed to it. Before proceeding to the substance of the debate, I would also like to say that Buffy Williams would have liked to have been here today, and Buffy is central to the motion. She has a great deal of experience in this area, and she would have certainly enriched today’s debate. So, I thank her for her co-operation and support in reaching this point.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I don’t want to spend too much time criticising the Government. That's an easy thing to do in terms of the politics of the thing, but the truth is that I genuinely want to see delivery on these issues as soon as possible, and it is only the Government that can take action. So I don’t think I would have much success in convincing them by criticising them for the final minutes of this debate.
But, it must be noted, before proceeding, that it is about time that the Government delivered on its promises. Yes, there are steps in place such as the community asset transfer, which, on paper, enables communities to take ownership of properties when a local authority or public body wants to dispose of them. But, and I speak from personal experience here, it is a very labour-intensive process that is very, very difficult to navigate, militating against community groups, with many giving up before achieving their ambition. I know this from experience. Heledd has spoken about the experiences in her contribution too.
Over 10 years have passed since the Welsh Co-operatives and Mutuals Commission recommended that the Welsh Government should legislate to enable communities to register their community assets and to have first refusal when community assets go on the market. And seven years have passed since the then Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty announced a consultation on the idea of developing Welsh policy to empower communities, stating that there was strong support for the idea of establishing a scheme that would impose a moratorium on the sale of assets, whilst a local group is organising itself to make a bid. Indeed, a commitment was given that a legislative framework would be introduced to develop an assets of community value scheme here, and that this would happen following the 2016 elections. But, it is now 2022, and we are still waiting.
Scotland has legislation that has been in place for over 20 years, as my colleague Peredur mentioned, and this legislation has been strengthened in that time. Communities across Scotland, be they rural or urban, have the right to bid for land and community assets, with a register of property and public land, and tens of millions of pounds are allocated to support community groups, with practical support also being given. That is what we need here. A great deal of this happens organically in Wales on the ground, but you need to understand the systems, and, above all, it takes resilience, time and commitment, which many people don’t have.
I want to take this opportunity, if I may, to pay tribute to one who did make the time and who came to understand the system, the father of the community action movement in modern Wales, if you will, namely the late Dr Carl Clowes, who worked so hard to revitalise the community in Llanaelhaearn, by establishing Antur Aelhaearn and then going on to establish Nant Gwrtheyrn. He also was one of the founders of Dolen Cymru, with that wonderful relationship between Lesotho and Wales. Carl passed away earlier this year, but what a legacy he left. He, along with the active Llanaelhaearn group, established the first community co-operative enterprise in the United Kingdom, having witnessed the damage and harm caused as the granite quarries in the area closed.He inspired the community to come together to launch an enterprise under local ownership that, at one point, sold clothes and other goods to major retailers in New York and Paris. I'm pleased to say that Antur Aelhaearn continues to operate in Llanaelhaearn to this day.
Everybody, hopefully, knows about the astonishing history of Nant Gwrtheyrn, as Carl and the gang repurposed that isolated village, and turned it into a successful centre for learning Welsh, not only breathing new life into the buildings, but into the community, into people and into a language. Carl’s legacy and the Antur’s work can be seen to this day, from the co-operative pubs Y Fic in Llithfaen, Pengwern Cymunedol in Llan Ffestiniog, Y Plu in Llanystumdwy and Yr Heliwr in Nefyn, to the work of Cwmni Bro in Blaenau Ffestiniog and the dozens of co-operative enterprises scattered across Gwynedd.
This is the spirit that we need to harness: the spirit of community co-operatives, as Peredur mentioned. The appetite, the enthusiasm and the love for communities are there. We only need to look at the excellent work done in communitiesacross Wales over the past two years, as communities identified where there were vulnerabilities and came together to care for each other, as Sam mentioned in his contribution.
How many times have we heard conversations in the pub or at the school gate, with people talking about a pub, old cinema, garage, old hotel, old chapel or an empty plot of land standing idle, and saying, 'I'm sure that something useful could be done with those properties'?
How many times have we seen buildings of local historical importance being demolished to build blocks of offices or luxury flats, as Jenny spoke about in her contribution? One only has to go to central Cardiff to see the architectural and cultural damage following the loss of so many of our historic buildings.
It is an all too familiar story, and unfortunately it’s a situation that has deteriorated over the past 10 years, as Janet mentioned in her contribution, as local authorities have had to sell assets to compensate for financial losses as a result of cuts. But the Government here can act and can ensure that communities are empowered to take ownership of these assets and develop them to be of community benefit.
What is of interest to me specifically is the exciting possibility that communities can begin developing affordable housing to meet the need in their own communities. Imagine that. As we face a housing crisis and a cost-of-living crisis—both interrelated, by the way—imagine if communities could identify local need and be given a parcel of land to develop homes of an appropriate size for their residents. They wouldn’t be driven by profit, but by the need to ensure that their families and neighbours had a roof over their heads. This isn’t a pipe dream; it’s a genuine possibility.
Think too about the possibility, through Ynni Cymru, of enabling communities to generate their own energy, and the economic benefit that the community would derive from this, or imagine a Wales with thriving co-operative shops, cinemas, allotments, leisure centres, creating quality jobs, with profits locked into the community.
I do welcome the contribution made by the Minister, and I'm pleased to hear that the Minister won't be opposing the motion. The Minister spoke about and praised Flintshire, with its register of assets. Well, why not follow that example and ensure that there is a national register of community assets available? Why don't you follow the leadership of Flintshire?
I also thank Huw Irranca-Davies for emphasising the need for legislation. I haven't heard today from the Minister what the intentions of the Government are in terms of legislation in this area, but I hope that there is scope for us to work on this going forward. So, Minister, and Government, do grasp this opportunity—an opportunity to develop policy and, hopefully, legislation that has the potential to transform the fortunes of our communities and their residents in Wales.
It would be good to see legislation introduced on this matter, of course—community empowerment legislation, including a register of community assets and giving communities first refusal on assets, legislation co-produced with our communities, which would ensure that it's possible to transfer assets simply to structured community groups, and, yes, with clauses to ensure that that property isn’t lost to public control. Do ensure that the funding is there, but also the practical support to guide communities on the journey, ensuring that they are in control. Thank you very much.

Joyce Watson AC: The motion—. Wait a minute, that's the next bit. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does anyone object? So, the motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee Report: Annual Report on Natural Resources Wales

Joyce Watson AC: We move on now to item 7, debate on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee's report, 'Annual Report on Natural Resources Wales'.

Motion NDM8032 Llyr Gruffydd
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report: 'Annual Report on Natural Resources Wales', laid in Table Office on 23 March 2022.

Motion moved.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd—or, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, I should say. Thank you for the opportunity to present this report. This is the first report on NRW that the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee has published during this Senedd term, and it is something that we do intend to publish on an annual basis. And that will be followed up, as today, with a debate, and there will be an opportunity for Members to raise any issues with the Minister here in the Chamber in relation to NRW.
In our report this year we talk, among other things, about the incident in 2020on the River Llynfi. The Llynfi is a tributary to the River Wye, and we heard in First Minister's questions yesterday about concerns about the state of that river. But the Llynfi is a site of special scientific interest, located in a special area of conservation. And, in July 2020, 45,000 fish and other river life were killed in a pollution incident on the river.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Now, there was a 13-hour delay before NRW officials attended the scene after the alarm was raised. NRW said that the delay was due to officers attending to other high-priority pollution incidents and health and safety concerns for the one available officer. Now, an NRW investigation found that there was no realistic prospect of conviction against any company or individual for the event, and we'll never know what evidence might have been found if it weren't for the delay in investigating the incident. Now, I'm not repeating this story just to be critical of NRW and its staff. I know that NRW staff were heartbroken that the polluters got away with this destruction. But, of course, it isan important example of the real-world impact of a lack of resources and capacity.
Between its creation in 2013 and 2020, NRW’s budget reduced by over a third. And as its budget went in one direction, the scale of the job that was asked of the organisation to do went in the other direction. Over the years, the Welsh Government has piled additional responsibilities and duties upon NRW. Now, I and others here have repeatedly made the case in the Chamber and in various committees that NRW’s funding needs to be looked at seriously. The committee is therefore pleased that the Minister has at last decided to undertake a baseline review to map NRW’s duties and statutory functions against its funding. And I'm pleased that the Minister has finally recognised that there has been a gradual expansion in what NRW is being asked to deliver.
Now, the committee is of the view that this review is much needed. There has been a growing call from stakeholders for a review over recent years. Some have told us they are losing confidence in NRW's ability to fulfil its duties and responsibilities. And this wasn't criticism of staff, but a question of a lack of capacity and resources. We hope therefore that the baseline review, once completed, will provide clarity about what the Welsh Government expects from NRW and the type of organisation it is willing to pay for.
So, this is a very positive development, but it was a little disappointing, in looking at the small print in the Minister’s response, that the review won’t be concluded until the end of the 2022-23 financial year. I can understand the logic for the timing, but the progress that we're seeing is painfully slow, and we really need to see more urgency here, particularly as Members have been raising these concerns over many years now.
Of course, the baseline review doesn’t necessarily mean that there’ll be any more funding available at the end of the process. We as a committee have recommended that the Welsh Government must ensure that funding for NRW is commensurate with its roles and responsibilities, and we expect to see an appropriate increase in NRW funding following the baseline review. The Minister has accepted this recommendation in principle—of course she has, who wouldn't? It’s entirely reasonable to expect any organisation to be properly funded for the work it’s asked to do, isn’t it? But that hasn't been NRW’s story up to this point. I am pleased that the Minister has told us she is open to looking at funding levels and models as part of the baseline review, but, without funding commitments, well, I’m afraid the question remains as to whether this is an academic exercise or will we really see change.
There are a few points raised in the report on the governance of NRW. We welcomed the introduction of the full term of Government remit letter. It's a positive step, and it will give more certainty in medium-term planning, which is to be welcomed. The next iterations of NRW’s corporate and business plans have been delayed, however. But, as we now know that the baseline review won’t be concluded until the end of that financial year, I think this needs to be addressed, and, of course, I’ll be discussing this with NRW in due time.
We were told that staffing will be considered as a result of the baseline review, and we understand that this is a necessary part of the process. But NRW only recently undertook its own organisational redesign. So, we are concerned that another cycle of restructuring will make it even harder for NRW to focus on its core work.
Now, I hope I've covered the main themes of our report in the time available to me, given that it's only a half-hour debate this afternoon. But the question now is: where does this leave us as we near the end of NRW’s first decade? I can't believe that I'm saying that—it's been almost a decade since NRW was established. Well, there is some good news. The Welsh Government seems at long last to accept that a gap has developed between what NRW is being asked to do and the funding that it receives. That's positive. There are also positive steps being taken around governance arrangements, as I said, particularly with the full term of Government remit letter.
But, as I said earlier, if you look at the small print, it's not perhaps quite so positive, in the sense that the baseline review won't be completed until the end of the financial year, and there might not be an increase in funding even at the end of that process. And if there is no additional funding, of course, then, at the very minimum, I would hope that the Government would be willing to tell NRW what they no longer need to prioritise in delivering their functions.
But, a year from now, I do hope that I’ll be telling you about a very different outlook for NRW. But I am concerned that, despite the positive noises that we continue to hear, NRW's bumpy journey will continue. And if that is the case, then the question that I and the committee ask is: who knows how many more incidents we will see like the one on the River Llynfi? Thank you.

Joyce Watson AC: I now call on Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much indeed, and my thanks to Llyr for chairing the evidence that we heard in this inquiry into NRW and bringing forward this report, and also our clerking team and those who gave evidence to us as well. At the same time as we face this double whammy of a climate crisis and a nature and biodiversity crisis, our report pointedly says that NRW needs a much-needed reset in funding and strategy to meet these crises. So, we believe, in bringing forward this report, that we do indeed have a much-needed opportunity now for a reset of the funding arrangements for NRW to put it on a stable footing now and for the future and to enable NRW to do its job properly, albeit being lean and mean and very, very green.
Just short of a decade after the merger in 2013 of the Countryside Council for Wales, Environment Agency Wales and Forestry Commission Wales—itself, of course, at the time courted some controversy—our report now picks up widespread current concern among stakeholders regarding, and I quote,
'its ability to monitor and enforce environmental protection laws; respond to incidents of environmental pollution and flooding; monitor and assess the condition of terrestrial and marine sites; and support land use and marine planning.'
Yet an effective, dynamic, purposeful and adequately resourced NRW is crucial to the success of responding to the nature and biodiversity crises that we face, as well as protecting people.
During scrutiny of the draft budget, the Minister for Climate Change told the committee that the question of whether NRW is able to effectively exercise its massive breadth of duties and responsibilities would be addressed through a fundamental baseline review, looking at the allocation of NRW resources against its statutory functions and the programme for government commitments. That'll conclude before April 2023. As the Chair says, that's a while off, but, if the time needs to be taken, reluctantly, then do it properly and then reset it, but do it really, really well; we can't waste any more time. The Minister's written response to our report has added more detail to that, and we're grateful for it. But we also note that NRW has told us that updates to its corporate and business plan and its remit letter have been delayed due to this baseline review. So, we simply cannot delay any further beyond the timelines the Minister has described.
Minister, can I ask you: how does NRW and its broad remit and responsibilities ensure that protecting and enhancing the natural environment and ecosystem services is advanced, alongside its commercial interests in timber and renewables and so on, and that nature isn't compromised against the balance-sheet approach?
On the workforce, NRW told the Senedd's Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee—and we noted this—that enforcing the recent agricultural pollution regulations would be a massive workload requirement, needing 60 extra staff to deliver the minimum viable product, and well over 200 to deliver the full role. NRW's review of flooding in February 2020 found that it would require an additional 60 to 70 staff to ensure long-term sustainable improvements in flood management. More generally, Minister, are the concerns that we regularly pick up about staff overstretch across the piste with NRW. So, Minister, a very straightforward question: do we have enough staff and expertise in the right place and at the right time with NRW?
The state of our rivers and the cumulative attack of sewage and agricultural and developmental and industrial pollution has had plenty of Senedd airtime this week already, and it's good to hear this week of some of the work that the Minister has commissioned already, and of the grabbing by the Welsh Government of new opportunities in the regulatory regime to strengthen duties on water companies, and that the First Minister himself is going to chair a phosphate summit at the Royal Welsh Show this year, but timely intervention, as we heard from the Chair, Minister, is crucial. So, what timescales has she set herself and NRW and other bodies for reversing the decline in our rivers—and I say this as the salmon champion in this Senedd, of course—and for seeing improvements in our rivers?
Finally, Minister, next year will indeed be 10 years since NRW was created, when those three distinct organisations were brought together. Will this be the year when—after the baseline review and the reset that we see is desperately needed is done—we can celebrate an NRW that is newly renewed, revived, fit for purpose now and for the future? Diolch yn fawr.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'd like to thank the Chair of the committee once again, and I thank my fellow members of the committee and the clerking team for their work on this topic. It became clear to us as a committee, as has already been set out, that NRW is facing a number of barriers and complexities that make it difficult for the body to do its work. NRW is an important regulator, but as Llyr Gruffydd, the Chair, has said, the budget has decreased by more than a third between the time of its creation and 2020.
But, at the same time as the budget has been decreased, the number of responsibilities given to the body has increased. That's not sustainable and it doesn't allow NRW to work in an efficient manner. This issue is evident in so many of the debates that we have had here at the Senedd. A whole host of problems have arisen over recent months and years related to flooding, to environmental pollution and to land use. And, yes, there is a tendency to think, ‘Well, this is just technical stuff.’ But no, actually, it has an impact on people's lives. It impacts on quality of life in our communities, on the safety of our environment, and it also impacts on the connection that we feel with the natural world around us. This isn't something far removed from us and something isolated. Rather, it's crucially important.
Stakeholders feel a lack of confidence, perhaps, in NRW's ability to do what is expected of it. And I would say, as the Chair has said, that this is in no way a criticism of the members of staff who work for NRW. We heard that there is a dashboard in NRW’s business plan; that is, a dashboard to measure progress made by the body in fulfilling work. That dashboard uses a traffic-light system, and of the 35 measures on the dashboard, two are red. We need to see movement on these, particularly, as Huw Irranca-Davies has been setting out, the inspections related to water.
When the Minister replies to the debate, I would like to hear more about the Government’s view on any progress that has been made in these fields. And I would certainly like to have an update on work being done to support NRW to tackle river pollution. That is something that caused a great deal of concern to us as a committee.It would also be good to hear more about how the Government will support NRW to deal with phosphorus pollution.
It is clear that budget cuts have led to NRW's failure to discharge its numerous responsibilities and to undertake adequate monitoring. As a result, we are haemorrhaging wildlife. The NRW report states that, in the areas where information is gathered, 60 per cent of protected sites are in an unfavourable state. Last year, we heard that almost half of protected sites aren't being monitored. The necessary funding must be provided to NRW to do the work that it's supposed to do and that it needs to do. If we don't work in a transformational way now to protect and save our biodiversity, it will disappear. And it won't come back.
So, I will conclude by asking one further question of the Government: how will the Government guarantee that NRW receives the support it needs? Does the Government acknowledge that the situation needs to change, and change dramatically, if wildlife in Wales is to survive?

Jane Dodds AS: I want to thank Llyr Gruffydd, and the committee, and NRW officials for their work, too. Llyr, Huw and Delyth have touched upon elements in my contribution.

Jane Dodds AS: Because I wanted to focus on rivers, and we've heard from both Huw and Delyth and Llyr about rivers. I want to just briefly mention the River Wye, which is in the region that I cover. It continues to deteriorate, along with the River Usk, which is in a terrible condition, and in July 2020, 45,000 fish were found dead in the River Llynfi.
I'm particularly concerned, as we've heard from the other contributors, that, against this backdrop, NRW lacks the tools to undertake the regulation and enforcement powers conferred on it. The chief executive officer of NRW, Clare Pillman, stated that NRW's grant in aid has been in fact reduced by 30 per cent in real terms since NRW was created. Add to that that the Welsh Government has given NRW additional core responsibilities, but these haven't been reflected in NRW's budget allocation. The 2021 agricultural pollution regulations would alone require 60 new members of staff as the minimum viable number needed to enforce these regulations. But NRW themselves have put the actual requirement at well over 200 to deliver against those regulations.
This all means that NRW struggles to undertake extensive monitoring to prevent and identify environmental incidents, contributing to the deteriorating conditions of our rivers, particularly the River Wye. It was disappointing, therefore, that the Government stated in the 2021-22 budget process that NRW's funding was sufficient for their statutory responsibilities, and according to the letter from the Minister in response to the report, the Government appears to—

Joyce Watson AC: Jane, will you take an intervention?

Jane Dodds AS: Yes, of course. I do apologise. Sorry, I didn't see that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Jane. I absolutely agree with you that NRW need more resources to track down the sources of this pollution. I just wondered, as you represent the region of Mid and West Wales, whether you'd had the opportunity to speak to Powys council about the proliferation of chicken farms that have been allowed to go ahead, and what contribution Powys council thinks the faeces from these chicken farms is making to the pollution of the River Wye.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Jenny. A really good point. Intensive poultry units have been granted planning permission in Powys, and I have, for a number of months, well before the new administration in Powys took control, been asking for the cumulative effect of IPUs on our river pollution. However, it is really important that we're clear. There are three issues, and both NRW and all of the agencies concerned in the River Wye say that there are three issues that mean that the pollution level in the River Wye is high: one is agriculture; the second is storm overflows; and the third is industrial pollution. Now, to monitor all of those, NRW need additional resources, and I've been involved in stakeholder meetings with all of the stakeholders, including farmers, including NRW, Dŵr Cymru, all of those nature conservation agencies, to look at how we can move the issues forward in the River Wye. It is just not simple enough to blame and hold responsible farmers and IPUs.
If I may just finish, Llywydd dros dro, if that's okay, because I was nearing the end of my contribution. So, I was just focusing on the financial position for NRW.I'm keen to see a response from the Government that could look at additional resources in the short term that would help river pollution. It's not just about money, but NRW do need both short-term and long-term additional resources to help them to save Welsh rivers. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch. I now call on the Minister to respond to this debate.

Julie James AC: Diolch. I'd very much like to start by thanking the committee for preparing this comprehensive report, which they published on 23 March, and for giving me the opportunity to respond to it. I acknowledge the conclusions made within the report, and note the contents.
Before I provide my response to the committee’s report and to the points made by Members here today, I would like to just take the opportunity to pay tribute to the staff of Natural Resources Wales for their efforts to protect and manage our environment and natural resources, particularly in working to address the climate and nature emergencies. Like many others across the public sector, Natural Resources Wales have served the people of Wales in the face of the United Kingdom's departure from the European Union, the COVID-19 pandemic and, most recently, the impact of the war in Ukraine. NRW staff and officials are passionate about their purpose and role in responding to these challenges, and the individual efforts of each and every member of staff are very much appreciated, and I wanted to just start by noting that.
As the Welsh Government's principal adviser on issues concerning Wales's natural resources, it is of course imperative that Natural Resources Wales and its leadership team are held to account in the exercise of their executive and legislative functions, and I commend the committee for its work in that regard.
Your report made eight recommendations, with three recommendations particularly requesting a response from Welsh Ministers. So, in terms of those recommendations, in recommendation 1 of the committee’s report for me to set the timetable for completion of the baseline review of NRW—and I know, Llyr, you acknowledge this—they completed the initial baseline review activity in November 2021, which provided my officials and I with a clearer view of NRW as an organisation, the structure and the apportionment of its resources across work areas. Since then, my officials have been working with NRW to examine the allocation of resources and undertake a prioritisation exercise to ensure that its resources align with ministerial priorities and are sufficient to discharge NRW's statutory responsibilities. In addition to that, my officials and NRW are also jointly working together to bring forward, this summer, service level agreements in key areas of work, one of which absolutely does include the Water Resources (Control of Agricultural Pollution) (Wales) Regulations 2021. The five areas are, in fact, pollution incident management and enforcement, the woodland estate, water quality, monitoring in general, and flood issues in particular.
NRW and I recognise that the current budget position is unsustainable in the longer term and that we need to work together to ensure resources are used efficiently and effectively to deliver on statutory obligations, the remit and the programme for government priorities. So, we expect this next phase of the baseline review to conclude before the end of this year, so once the service level agreements have been worked on with the officials over the summer, myself and the NRW leadership team will meet once more in the early part of the autumn term. We will do some more work on establishing priorities, and then we will discuss exactly how any uplift to their resource will work. I will want to make absolutely certain that I'm getting value for money for what's currently there, and also that we understand what any uplift in resource would actually do for the people of Wales.
And I can't emphasise this enough, because before the baseline review—. And, you know, the Llynfi issue is a matter of real regret, I know, to the NRW staff, and it's something that none of us would ever have wanted to see in Wales, and we certainly don't want to see it again. But until the baseline review, they actually didn't know how much it was costing them to send people to each incident or how to budget for that, so it’s clearly essential that they understand the base costs of that sort, so the overheads and exactly what the cost of managing each incident is, in order to be able to make decent judgments about how to deploy their resources. They also need to understand what each part of their remit looks like in resource terms, and how they can be adjusted, depending on what's currently happening out there in the world. I get, for example, incident reports, every single day from NRW staff responding to various incidents. It's easy to see the breadth of incidents that they have to respond to, and they have to make judgment calls on what they're receiving in terms of whether it's actually worth sending somebody out. Obviously, in the Llynfi example, they misjudged that badly and I know that that's something that they very much regret.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: We expect that baseline review, the SLA part of that baseline review, to conclude before the end of this calendar year, just to be clear—so, not financial year. And then, we will be working with NRW to look at your recommendation 4,
'ensure that funding for NRW is commensurate with its roles and responsibilities',
along with the committee's expectation of seeing an appropriate increase in funding. I just want to be really clear that, with any increase in funding, I would want to know exactly what that was going to get spent on, how it was going to be allocated and why the costs were as they were. Then, in terms of recommendation 5 of the report,
'provide further information to the Committee on discussions she is having with NRW about how its funding model might change in the light of the baseline review',
I'm very happy to keep the committee informed on those discussions. We're looking at different funding models for NRW, allowing them to plan, prepare and deliver more effectively over the longer term. One of the things that the officials are looking at is whether or not the Government can baseline grant funding, so that, instead of applying for one-off yearly grants for particular priorities, they can get put into the core funding and then have longer to plan.
And then, Llywydd, just to try your patience for one second longer, we're looking again to review where the income from windfarms and from the woodland estate goes, which I know I discussed with the committee at some length when I was actually appearing. So, we accept either completely or in principle the recommendations made for us. Where it's in principle, it's because we're already doing it, but perhaps with a slightly different methodology than the committee recommended. But I'm more than happy to share all of that work and the responses and updates with the committee in due course. Diolch.

Llyr Gruffydd now to reply to the debate.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I know that there are some time restrictions, so I will not respond to all comments, but I would like to thank the Minister for her contribution.
It's good to hear that the review will be completed by the end of the calendar year. The frustration for us is that if the process had started earlier, we would reach the finish line more quickly and we would then see positive outcomes in terms of the work of NRW.
You are right that any additional funding would need to be justified, because I and others would be the first to complain if that weren't the case. Therefore, one recognises that. And there is this question of income, too, as you touched upon at the very end there, from the forestry estate and from any renewable energy projects. That has been something that has been on the table for many, many years and I do now think that we must have a clear decision—either that that is reinvested in the work of NRW, or it's not, once and for all.
Now, 'gusto is coming'—I often quote this. I think that the Deputy Minister said that to the committee; I think that he was talking about public transport. Well, it feels like that for many things at the moment. Gusto is coming; well, it's about time it came, I do feel.
Just to conclude, I also want to echo the thanks to NRW staff for the exceptional work that they do and the exceptional responsibilities that they shoulder. Whatever you think of the organisation, or of the regulations that they have to implement, nobody doubts the motivation and commitment of the individuals in NRW, who do work day and night to help deliver the Wales we all want to see. But, what's crucial, of course—and hopefully what this debate and our report will contribute towards—is that the Government also plays its part and keeps its part of the deal to ensure that NRW has the resources and capacity needed to do their work effectively. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, therefore, the motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: The transport network

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths, and amendment 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Item 8 is the next item. This is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the transport network, and I call Natasha Asghar to move the motion.

Motion NDM8033 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Does not believe that the Welsh transport network is fit for purpose.

Motion moved.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you, Presiding Officer. I move the motion tabled in the name of my colleague Darren Millar.
It's no secret that I've been in my role for over a year, and after having conversations with numerous members of the public, various bodies, various organisations, the conclusion that I've come to is that the transport network in Wales is just not fit for purpose. Whether we're talking about roads, railways or bus services, the sad fact is that this Welsh Labour Government has presided over the deterioration of services and infrastructure.
There comes a point when we cannot keep blaming Westminster for matters that this Welsh Government is responsible for. After more than 20 years in power, Welsh Labour has delivered gridlocked and congested roads, an inefficient and unreliable rail service and fewer buses serving communities, particularly in rural areas. We are all road users, whether we drive, cycle or travel by bus. We all rely on the road network to sustain us with the food we eat and the products we all buy—they are all transported by road.
In 2018, our own Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee, of which my late father was a member, produced a report called 'The State of Roads in Wales'. This report warned four years ago, prior to COVID, that the lack of money and priority for repairs stood out and that without sufficient funding the roads we have will deteriorate. In oral evidence, the Freight Transport Association described Wales's roads as, and I quote, 'deteriorating'. The Road Haulage Association suggested, and I quote again, that
'the roads are getting worse, particularly where there have been previous patches.'
The Confederation of British Industry broadened the issue to consider congestion as well as condition, emphasising the damage being done to the economy by the cost of delay to freight operators working to timed delivery slots. The committee made a number of recommendations, one of which called on the Welsh Government and local government to ensure that priority and funding was given to cost-effective long-term planned maintenance of our roads network. Sadly, the Welsh Government has ducked the challenge and failed to deliver the modern, safe road network that Wales so desperately needs.
Twelve months ago, the Deputy Minister announced a freeze on all new road building and road improvement projects here in Wales. More than 50 projects to improve the road network, including vital arteries such as the M4, the A55, the Llanddewi Velfrey bypass and the A470 were all halted. Since the announcement of the freeze, I've been trying to find out exactly how much money has been spent on projects that are now on hold. A simple task, you may all think. Not so. The Deputy Minister, in his latest attempt at obfuscation, dated 13 June 2022, said, and I quote:
'The panel are carefully considering a range of cost and benefits in their deliberations, including the estimated financial cost of schemes to Welsh Government as part of their work.'
I'd like to know why the Deputy Minister is refusing to give a straight answer to my question. What is he trying to hide? Is it that thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, dare I say even millions of pounds of taxpayers' money has been frittered away on projects that may not even proceed? The people of Wales, as do all of us sitting here in this Chamber, have a right to know. The Deputy Minister's aspiration to get people out of their cars and onto public transport would have more credence if buses and trains were actually a viable option. But they're not. The number of bus journeys—[Interruption.] I will. I'll take an intervention. Go on.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. That's very generous of you in your opening remarks. Thank you for that. Would you acknowledge that, prior to Transport for Wales, when the rail network was completely under UK control in terms of its spend, Wales received a mere 0.2 per cent of the structural funds available to England?

Natasha Asghar AS: I think the issue you're talking about is obviously a contentious one, because it's obviously concerning rail and, obviously, it's something that Welsh Government, as well as the UK Government, have an interest in. However, I don't believe that it's true moving forward, and I think the devolved issue that we have here, the devolved issue that we're focusing on right now, is important. [Interruption.] Yes, absolutely, Russ.

Russell George AC: Just to correct the record here, because I think what's important to say is that the Welsh Government were responsible for transport before Transport for Wales in terms of the infrastructure.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much for that, Russ. The number of bus journeys, as I mentioned, was falling even prior to the COVID outbreak. In 2016-17, there were 100 million bus journeys, a figure that fell to 89 million in 2019-20. We've had countless debates and questions in the Chamber, and it's clear that many bus services have not resumed since the pandemic, leaving residents isolated in their communities, many of them amongst the most vulnerable categories, including the elderly, the disabled and those with long-term illnesses. Age Cymru has called for better integration between transport and key services, as well as better lighting, seating and shelter for passengers. And, frankly, I want the same, and I'm sure all of you do too. I welcome the fact that the Welsh Government has finally recognised the importance of bus services after years of chronic underfunding. As one bus operator said to me recently, they have no problem with franchising; it's the lack of funding they are disappointed by. I really look forward to seeing detailed proposals to support bus services in the forthcoming legislation, and I'm keen to see how the Welsh Government will help rural areas specifically afford eco-friendly buses.
It gives me genuinely no pleasure to say that the customer dissatisfaction with the Welsh railway service is the highest in Britain. A YouGov poll last November revealed that 22 per cent of people in Wales believe their local rail service was bad, with only 41 per cent saying it was good. Overcrowding on trains has been an issue for a considerable length of time, particularly when major events have taken place in Cardiff, such as we saw only a couple of weeks ago with the Ed Sheeran and Tom Jones concerts. More than 11,000 services have been cancelled by Transport for Wales over the last three years, and the average age of rolling stock is nearly double the British average. No wonder, then, that Transport for Wales have had to pay out more than £2 million to rail customers in compensation since 2018.
I have spent many sessions in this Chamber talking about Cardiff Airport, which is, and always will be, a Welsh Government vanity project and nothing more. You can show me many complex accounts and various figures in my Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee meetings, but as a politician who likes to call a spade a spade, I will continue to air my concerns about it and its future as well.
Presiding Officer, whether it be rail, whether it be road, or air or bus service, 23 years of Welsh Labour mismanagement and neglect have left our transport service and infrastructure fall into ruin. The failure to deliver a solid transport system that is fit for purpose is sincerely damaging the economy and causing constant angst and frustration for travellers and business alike. Labour here in Wales needs to wake up, smell the coffee and take action to deliver a twenty-first century transport system that Wales desperately needs and that people all across Wales want and rightfully deserve.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. I call, first of all, on Julie James to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all and replace with:
1. Believes Llwybr Newydd is a transport strategy for Wales that is fit for the climate emergency.
2. Calls on the UK Government to provide adequate funding to Wales for investment in the public transport network.

Amendment 1 moved.

Julie James AC: Formally.

I call on Delyth Jewell now to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Add as new point at end of motion:
Believes that rail infrastructure should be devolved to ensure Wales gets its fair share from projects such as HS2.

Amendment 2moved.

Delyth Jewell AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Transport isn't only about getting from one place to another. Investment in transport shows where we are headed as a nation, and it is abundantly clear that the transport network in Wales is not fit for purpose. Any system whereby commuters need to go on a convoluted route via a different country in order to get to a destination in the other direction in their own country evidently needs a radical overhaul, and that is why the Plaid Cymru amendment that I'm pleased to move sets out that rail infrastructure should be devolved to ensure that Wales has a modern transport network and that we get our fair share from projects like HS2.
I'll concentrate my remarks on railways in the interests of time. I've mentioned that the location of the actual tracks we have or, more importantly, perhaps, the tracks that no longer exist, is a massive problem. The comedian Elis James quipped about this on S4C, saying that he was in Pwllheli on a tour on a Friday and Bangor on a Saturday, a distance of 30 miles in the same county. He said, 'On a train, six and a half hours. Six and a half hours, 30 miles, I could forward roll it. That would be faster than the train.' It's funny, but then it also really isn't funny.
So many connections that might and should exist don't, and the lack of railway connection means other societal, educational and business connections don't always happen either. It's not always possible to measure the impact of an absence, but that seems to be what we constantly need to do when it comes to quantifying the cost of a lack of investment in critical infrastructure in Wales over decades.
The Labour Party can't be let off the hook entirely here. The Welsh Government was offered the control of rail by Tony Blair's Government in 2005, but reportedly, because of fears that the Government wouldn'tbe able to afford liabilities on the assets if there were issues after the transfer, they declined the offer. Transport expert Professor Mark Barry has described this as perhaps the biggest mistake made by a Welsh Government in the history of devolution.
The Wales Governance Centre has calculated that Wales lost out on £514 million between 2011-12 and 2019-20, which we would have received had rail infrastructure been devolved. The Silk commission recommended devolving it in 2014, and it was again rejected in the flawed St David's process—so many missed chances. But, in this instance, we can quantify the cost of not doing the sensible thing.
With HS2, Wales is set to lose out on a £5 billion share of funding because Westminster is depriving us of the full Barnett consequential by unreasonably classifying it as an England-and-Wales project. Let's remember, no single mile of track will be in Wales, and analysis by KPMG found that HS2 will damage Wales's economy by shifting activity to areas the line will actually serve, yet we're treated as though it benefits Wales.
Scotland, where infrastructure and planning of Network Rail is devolved, will get up to £10 billion through a full Barnett consequential. I'll note in passing, Llywydd, that Scotland's railway was in better repair before devolution. It already had some electrification, whereas we only have the track between Cardiff and the Severn bridge even now in 2022. Over the past decade, we've lost out on around £600 million because relevant infrastructure is not devolved. Over the next five years, we'll lose another £300 million and a further £500 million we should be receiving in HS2 funding—all of that lost potential, like the missing tracks all over the country.
We've lost £1.4 billionin rail investment over 15 years because of this flawed ideology and this stubbornness from Westminster as well in terms of how they classify projects. People in Wales pay so much more on an older stock when the same fare in other parts of Europe would get you half way across the continent in luxury. We need to build our way out of this. We need to forge those connections, but none of that, Llywydd, will be possible until rail infrastructure is devolved. So, I commend the Plaid Cymru amendment to the Senedd and I hope very much that all parties will support it.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I very much echo the sentiments of my colleague Natasha Asghar. Hailing from a rural community, I have seen very good public transport, but, far too often, I’ve seen the very poorest of what’s on offer to the people of Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire. Indeed, if you follow the Welsh Government's advice to ditch your car, you are completely and utterly dependent on sporadic timetabling and infrequent access to public transport services. And for some, that’s the difference between arriving on time for a job interview, making that important hospital appointment, or clocking into a shift on time.
Now, there is a bit of a perverse irony from the Welsh Government in calling on my constituents—on our constituents—to ditch their cars and catch the bus instead, yet not take any fundamental steps to ensure that transport services in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire are fit for the twenty-first century. This narrative just simply doesn’t mirror the policy output and the action of this Welsh Government and, when Welsh Government does inevitably fail, it is local people who pay the price.
But, by now, I’m sure the Minister will know of the level of discontent from the people of west Wales, and born from this frustration emerged SPRAG, following a meeting I convened and hosted with disgruntled rail users as a consequence of inadequate rail services between Pembroke Dock and Whitland and the stations in between—Narberth, Tenby and Pembroke to name a few. Those local rail users continued the discussion and have joined forces to launch the south Pembrokeshire rail action group, a group of dedicated volunteers who are working cross-party to campaign for improvements to rail connectivity to and within rural south Pembrokeshire. Yet the very presence of this organisation and others like it, forced together by inadequacy and inaction, is a direct admission of the transport failures of this Welsh Government.
Because of delay and poor connectivity in west Wales, frustrated local people have taken it upon themselves to achieve change, change that shouldn’t be necessary if this Government believed in a Wales that existed outside of south Wales. But this is about more than just getting from X to Y. When we connect towns to villages, and villages to communities, we aren’t just ensuring travel to and from a location; we are delivering prosperity and creating jobs. If you can travel between your village and the local town centre, you instantly create a whole array of new opportunities, not just for that individual, but for the location as well.
And we’ve seen, first-hand, this in Saundersfoot and Tenby. As a consequence of not being able to travel by public transport to these locations, local businesses were left with huge employment shortfalls, especially the case when it comes to the employment of our young people. Local restaurants struggled to reopen after the pandemic, seaside hotels were left without enough staff to clean rooms, and start-up businesses were forced into operating with reduced hours. Whilst this situation has been seen across the country, as we exit two years of enforced isolation, the problem has been made worse by the inability of businesses to fill employment gaps due to any worker employed outside of the traditional nine-to-six employment hours being unable to access transport to and from work.
And if you consider the number of jobs servicing the night-time economy and hospitality industry in towns such as Saundersfoot and Tenby, then you begin to appreciate how much of a challenge this failure begins to present. So, I return to the point about improving rural transport connectivity. We aren’t just debating the importance of buses on our roads, or trains on our tracks, but the wider issue, created by Government inaction, of how a failure to support a rural, public transport network impacts on businesses, employment and tourism. If the Welsh Government changes tack and invests in west Wales’s transport services, then we can ensure that every community is connected, which can change the outlook and life chances for those who live in those communities for the better. Diolch.

Carolyn Thomas AS: I would like to begin by expressing my solidarity with Rail, Maritime and Transport workers currently on strike across the UK. Rail staff work all hours, seven days a week, to keep the country moving. Far from modernising our railway, the UK Government now want to make compulsory redundancies, with cuts to thousands of rail jobs. The rail workers involved in the dispute include on-train and station staff, cleaners and repair workers, the majority of whom haven't had pay rises for two or three years. These are ordinary workers whose livelihoods are now under threat, despite the fact that rail companies have made in excess of £500 million a year in private profit since the start of the pandemic. Thankfully, in Wales, we have a leader in Mark Drakeford who supports workers and works with unions so that Transport for Wales staff are not on strike this week. The UK Tory Government could learn a lot from the Welsh Labour Government, and the buck stops with them when it comes to disruption.
But it's not just in this respect that I feel the Conservative Party have got lessons to learn. I was shocked to hear calls from the opposition benches last week for an increase in the number of internal flights in Wales. We are in a climate emergency, and such a move will do nothing to support ordinary people to access services they need in their local communities. Twenty-five per cent of the lowest income families do not own a car; they are more likely to live in highly polluted places and not have access to gardens and green spaces—

Are you taking an intervention?

Carolyn Thomas AS: No, I won't, thank you.

No, she's not taking an intervention.

Carolyn Thomas AS: And any fit-for-purpose transport network must put their needs at the forefront of planned improvements. It's for this reason that I was pleased to hear in the Chamber last week that the £2.9 million annual funding subsidies for flights from Anglesey will be diverted to invest in public transport in north Wales, and the region will be made a priority for the 197 trains, which are much needed. As we have seen from the overcrowding, two carriages are just not enough for the north Wales line.
I very much welcome these planned improvements, which will work alongside already existing initiatives. The Sherpa bus service of Snowdonia has seen 9 per cent growth and 27 per cent increase in revenue, tackling congestion in Gwynedd. There are free bus passes for anyone over 60 years of age, which is much welcomed. Mytravelpass is available for 16 to 21-year-olds, with discounts of 30 per cent—great for university students—and Welsh Government have funded, through Transport for Wales, six Fflecsi bus services, where residents can book by app or phone, and this trial is proving highly popular.
I was also lifted by a recent meeting, which was on the train, on Monday, that I attended, about the work taking place with Transport for Wales, and perhaps this needs to be more widely promoted and published so that everybody knows what work is actually happening. Some great initiatives are being funded through Welsh Government and Transport for Wales, working with operators, such as the 1Bws ticket. Innovation will link buses with rail on a single ticket, which will allow passengers to pay as they go, and there's already a pilot in north Wales to trial tap-on and tap-off technology. Investment will also be taking place in three major schemes: in Bangor parkway, Holyhead parkway and Wrexham gateway.
So, we can see that the vision is in place, studies are being done, and the Welsh Government are providing funding. What is required now is adequate investment from the UK Government. We should, of course, have received our fair share of HS2 consequential funding of £5 billion, but, as we know, the Tories have sold our communities short once again, and the £5 billion has not been forthcoming.
To have a fit-for-purpose transport network, we need proper funding from the UK Government. If we are to cope with the cost-of-living crisis and the climate emergency, that investment is needed as a matter of urgency, and I hope they will support the next levelling-up funding bid, because the first one they didn't support, which was much needed. And I also ask that capital funding gets made available to invest in highway maintenance, because you can see roads deteriorating right across the UK, not just in Wales, following 10 years of austerity by the UK Government impacting on highway maintenance, and there's an 11 per cent cut in capital funding coming to Welsh Government. I am pleased, though, that, instead of building new roads, money will be diverted to the maintenance of existing highways, which is much needed. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Hopefully, I can add a bit of sense to the debate after the previous contribution. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to speak on this debate this afternoon. As highlighted in my question to the Minister for Climate Change earlier this afternoon, this topic is of major concern to my constituents in the Vale of Clwyd. It's staggering that just 53 per cent of people in Wales live within walking distance of public transport, and, even more so, only less than 41 per cent of people in north Wales have access to public transport, and that just can't be right.
Transport-related issues at present are the second highest category of casework that I'm dealing with, second only to health matters, and in close proximity to the number of housing concerns coming through my postbag, showing what a priority this topic is for my area. And sadly we see a whole mirage of issues throughout the whole of Wales when it comes to the most basic of transport. For example, 22 per cent of people in Wales believe their local train services are bad, actually the highest in Britain; only 41 per cent of people in Wales viewed their services as good, the joint lowest across Britain, alongside the east midlands. The disparity is exacerbated across rural and urban areas, with only 29 per cent of people in rural Wales believing their local train services are good. And when they do finally manage to catch a train, it’s on outdated and dilapidated carriages, nearly 30 years old. The average age of rolling stock in Wales is nearly double the average age in Great Britain, with rolling stock in Britain averaging at 17 years old, whereas Wales is the second-highest in Britain, at 30 years old. And how can that be right, Minister? I hear you chuntering away there to your colleague, but how can that be right?
I wish I could say that these glaring issues are just confined to rail, but that, Llywydd, would not be telling the truth. The distance covered—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Gareth Davies AS: Yes. Of course, yes.

Rhianon Passmore AC: The point that I've not had a response to, in regard to the lack of infrastructural funding on the rail network across Wales prior to Transport for Wales, what is your response to the appalling disregard and disinvestment in Wales? In the past.

Gareth Davies AS: Well, I’m glad you manged to finally—[Interruption.] I'm glad you finally managed to correct yourself there, but I’m a Senedd Member, and my job is to deal with what’s devolved to the Welsh Government, and what’s devolved to the Welsh Government is public transport for Wales. Hence the reason my contribution is tailored towards the infrastructure that is run from here in Cardiff, and not by Westminster.
So, the distance covered by buses in Wales has fallen significantly under this Labour Government, with many service reductions affecting residents in the Vale of Clwyd, in particular, residents of Roundwood Avenue in Meliden, who feel as though they have lost a lifeline now that their area has been removed from the local circular bus route, and they now have to walk almost half a mile to reach their nearest stop on the route, which is no small feat for older people or those with limited mobility. Although certainly exacerbated by the pandemic, this follows a trend of gradual decline over the last decade.
Then we come to arguably the biggest infrastructure and transport failure presided over by this Government, which is car travel. Consecutive Labour Governments have failed to build an adequate road network in 23 years of government. Despite the volume of traffic increasing by nearly 25 per cent over the past two decades, the road network has only increased by 3.3 per cent here in Wales, and we still see no major improvements to the A55, running through my constituency, which, as we head into the summer months, I’m sure will be overwhelmed by the increase in traffic related to tourism, tourism that we should be encouraging and welcoming in north Wales, not putting people off coming here due to anticipating road delays and tailbacks. And as we push for more environmentally friendly travel options on the road, such as switching to electric cars, Wales only has 35 charging devices per 100,000 people, compared to the 54 in Scotland and the 46 in England per 100,000.
There has been a clear theme to this speech today, and many other speeches delivered in this debate this afternoon, and it’s one of decades of failure by this Labour Government to solve and fix the pressing transport issues facing Welsh people today on a day-to-day basis. We fail to see any Minister hold their hands up and admit they’ve got it wrong time and time again. Instead, we get false promises, hot air and more dither and delay whilst our constituents struggle. Even earlier today, the Minister for Climate Change addressed my concerns about poor forward planning during major events such as Chester races and sports events, with crowded carriages on the north Wales line, by deflecting the blame to Network Rail, despite this being under the scope of Transport for Wales and the Welsh Government, which I alluded to in the intervention.
Wales needs and deserves an integrated modern transport infrastructure fit for the twenty-first century. This Labour Government should be striving to ensure that the Welsh population are able to use public transport as a viable alternative to private car use. Sadly, the evidence points to the contrary, and, with a moratorium on road building now in place, I expect to see things get worse before they get better, and the truth is, Minister, Wales deserves better.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I rise to support amendment 1, tabled by Lesley Griffiths, Member of the Senedd. Yesterday, I was proud to stand with the rail workers from the RMT trade union on the picket line at Cardiff Central station, alongside my colleague. They are taking a stand for the future of our railway because safety must never be compromised at the altar of profit for private rail companies who also gorge on public subsidy from the UK Government. The Tory UK Government have allowed rail travel—have allowed rail travel—to be prohibitively expensive for working people whilst seeking to demonise—

Gareth Davies AS: Will the Member take an intervention?

Rhianon Passmore AC: Indeed.

Gareth Davies AS: What would be your assessment, then, of the working people that the rail strikes affect? So, people trying to get to work, students, nurses, doctors, people who make a difference to people's lives on a daily basis who can't get to work. And during a cost-of-living crisis have to actually travel further and spend more money on their travel.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. I think the very simple response to that is, firstly, you sit around the table together. The second response to that is that the Government has a duty of care to its people on safety and on transport, and they need to get their act together.That same workforce also kept our economy and hospitals alive during COVID. There is a disregard for them.
Point 2 of the amendment tabled by Lesley Griffiths states that we need the UK Government to provide adequate funding to Wales for investment in the public transport network. We all know that British Rail was a disastrous privatisation, surely, by the John Major Tory UK Government, desperate to continue the ideological dogma of the Thatcher years. As another former Tory Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, said of privatisation, 'They sold off the family silver.' I suggest that your Government is also selling off the toilet rolls.
Speaking to rail workers yesterday, including RMT Cardiff branch secretary, Trevor Keane, it was really evident how positive rail workers were for the actions and the policies of this Welsh Government to transform rail services in Wales as far as the powers we hold enable us to do so.
In my constituency of Islwyn, I see the Welsh Labour Government action with the fantastic success of the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff passenger line, which serves the communities of Newbridge, Crosskeys, Risca and Pontymister, because that is indeed one of the transport success stories of Welsh devolution. Last December saw the introduction of an hourly service to the Gwent city of Newport, and now the line is undergoing a £70 million upgrade, with the dualling of the tracks and the installation of new platforms and the upgrade—[Interruption.] I'm sorry, I won't now. And the upgrading of the signal system. The Welsh Labour Government has shown in Islwyn its commitment to the railways and the Valleys communities, and it is just a joy to see the new Transport for Wales livery and the emergence of upgraded and new rolling stock for the Welsh public after decades of disinvestment from the infrastructure fund from the UK to the old Wales network.
Llywydd, I'm confident that the Welsh Government, in its bus White Paper, will tackle that other unedifying legacy of the Thatcher years, the near destruction of municipal bus companies, all at the altar of a far-right ideology. The Tories—[Interruption.] The Tories have inflicted much harm on Wales through the centuries and continue to do so with their policies that place profit before people. In south Wales, we have a railway network primarily of Victorian construction, built to service the heavy industries of coal and steel, and the Welsh Government, with the powers it possesses, is seeking to build an innovative and exciting twenty-first century passenger network that befits the Welsh people.
Finally, the UK Government, as my colleague to my left has stated, would not even electrify the main railway line to Swansea, and have failed to do so repeatedly since. That is how little the people of Wales mean to this UK Tory Government. Welsh Labour will stand up for Welsh passengers and stand up for Welsh workers, and will stand up for the men and women who commit to serving on our public transport system, and I want to say thank you to them as well.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: A well-connected, integrated travel network that's affordable and modern for Wales, is that really too much to ask? Well, it seems so. Transport underpins the functioning of any society. It plays a fundamental role in enabling access to work, learning, health services, social and cultural activities. If our access to transport options is not questioned, then we will continue to see an increasing decline in the Welsh Government's approach to improving transport here in Wales. But I suppose you could say, though, when you do have access to a ministerial car, it is all too easy to forget how most other people get around.
Data shows that the number of people commuting has increased from 1.1 million people in 2001 to 1.3 million people in 2019, a rise of 16.8 per cent. With the onset of the cost-of-living crisis, an increase in the population of Wales, this is surely going to rise significantly further as people begin to seek more cost-effective avenues of getting to work.
However, even though there's been an uptick in people using rail and bus services, it is nowhere near enough if we are to put public transport at the heart of our fight against climate change. A YouGov poll found that 22 per cent of Welsh residents believe that rail provision is bad in their area—and I agree—with 11 per cent responding that they do not have any local train services at all. More so, 11,000 train services have been cancelled by TfW over the last three years. Between January and October 2021, there were 28 services that were more than an hour late, and at least 340 train services that were late by 15 to 30 minutes during the same period.As a result of the inefficient services, TfW has paid out—[Interruption.] Come on, if this is good, why—? TfW have paid out £2.23 million in compensation to passengers since 2018. When the TfW chief executive is describing himself the train service in Wales as not acceptable, you know something has gone terribly wrong and you know there's no need—[Interruption.]
Rolling stock of the TfW network is the most obvious, depleted and old. The trains being run today are not environmentally friendly, and indeed far from modern. And I have to say that the train I went back on last week was absolutely filthy, but anyway. They belong in the history books—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you, and we've shared some abysmal experiences, haven't we, on journeys from north to south Wales? I've listened intently to what you said. I've listened for the best part of the last hour to your colleagues explaining what the problem is. What I'm not hearing is: what would you do differently? So, maybe with the few minutes you have remaining, you could explain what would you do.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, we'd certainly use the money that we get here, coming into Wales, we'd actually use it far more effectively, far more efficiently, and we would provide a good transport service. When devolution was first mooted, the links between north and south were going to be made far simpler. This was going to be the democratic heart of Wales. Well, I can tell you now it's a darn sight worse trying to get from north to south now than it was 11 years ago, or indeed at the start of devolution.
One of the largest disparities is the level of spending by the Welsh Government on the north Wales and south Wales metro. No wonder the people of north Wales actually feel it all happens in Cardiff, not in north Wales. At a time when the Welsh Government have spent the past few years wasting money on an air link that wasn't even operating, to then just cancel it altogether without a replacement, sums up the level of ineptitude carried out by this Government. You really do take the people of Wales for granted, and you also see your own time in this Chamber as the Government as being endless.
Well, after recent months, perhaps the scenes witnessed on the train services between north and south Wales, where overcrowding has become the norm, they'll realise the discontent that will face you in 2026. We tend to think because you fail in health, in education and lots of other things of the devolved powers that you have, but it could be something like this—the fact that you cannot get to grips with any reliable transport service in Wales.
Almost all along the coast of Aberconwy, concerns continue to be raised with me about different sections of the existing cycle paths. Your Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013, although well-intended with lots of ambitions, is not being delivered. In the heart of the Conwy valley, we have a cycle path that stops in the middle of the countryside, rather than going all the way along the A470 to Betws-y-coed. And in Glan Conwy andLlandudno, there has been painfully slow progress on the Welsh transport appraisal guidance stages of a scheme that was actually needed in 2004.
If Wales is to get ahead of the game and truly modernise, where the mobilisation of its people is at the centre of other policies, you as a Welsh Government need to be more ambitious. You need to spend and legislate to provide proper rail services and inter-town active travel routes. I am confident that bold action on public transport now will save money and improve health and well-being in the long term. Alternatively, of course, you can always give way to your opposition party, the Welsh Conservatives, and allow us to do what needs to be done to give the people of Wales the transport infrastructure that they deserve.

The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I can’t resist saying that it’s a shame for Janet that the people of Wales keep re-electing the Welsh Labour Government. A fact that she seems to always pass by.
Llywydd, I welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate. Although, in a week when the railways have been brought to a standstill, airports brought to a standstill and petrol prices are on the increase again, I wasn’t sure whether the Conservatives had meant to table this against their own UK Government, who clearly have no vision of any sort and absolutely no direction.
The Welsh Government, by contrast, has an immensely ambitious vision for the transport network in Wales, and the changes that need to happen to be fit for the climate emergency—a climate emergency that the Tories are quick to acknowledge in theory, but never, ever support in practice. It is a vision made increasingly difficult by decades of underinvestment from the UK Government and a consistent rejection of our requests for devolution. It's really interesting that a Tory Member of this Senedd thinks that funding for Wales is not part of his job. That just explains such a lot about the situation that we’re in.
Our transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', sets out the path that we need to take, but implementation of that strategy requires—

Are you taking an intervention, Minister?

Julie James AC: —requires fair funding from the UK Government.

Minister, are you taking an intervention?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course.

Gareth Davies AS: I was wondering if you could clarify those comments that you just made there about Senedd Members not being aware of funding for Wales.

Julie James AC: Yes, you said it wasn't part of your job, and I'm pointing out that that's hilarious.

Gareth Davies AS: Could you elaborate on that a bit more, because I don't understand what you said?

Julie James AC: You pointed out that it was not part of your job, and I was pointing out that that was hilarious.
Our transport strategy, 'Llwybr Newydd', sets out the path that we need to take, but implementation of that strategy requires fair funding from the UK Government. Transport causes 17 per cent of our carbon emissions and has been the slowest sector to reduce emissions. Improving this trend requires radical action to move more journeys to active travel and public transport, and reduce car use.
Wrong approaches to transport have become embedded—approaches that the Welsh Conservatives are intent on keeping, when the science is telling us to do the total opposite. Road schemes are predicated on the idea that traffic growth is inevitable—the view that the economy will grind to a halt unless we provide more space for cars. The climate emergency demands that we abandon this misguided thinking. That’s why we announced a freeze on road building and established the roads review panel.
Road building will no longer be the default response. Instead, existing infrastructure to create new bus and cycle lanes that give people a viable and attractive alternative is what we champion. Yesterday, we laid legislative changes to reduce the default speed limit on Welsh roads from 30 mph to 20 mph. This change will be world-leading. It will save lives, make our streets safer for playing, walking and cycling, and encourage the modal shift that we are seeking.
On buses, a totally new approach is necessary because of the deliberate political decision by the Conservative Government to deregulate and privatise the bus network in 1985. That has led to a bus system designed to primarily serve commercial interests rather than the public interest. In the face of this market failure, we will intervene to build a better system—one that works for passengers, reaches our climate goals and tackles social injustice.
On rail, we have neither the appropriate devolution of rail infrastructure nor a fair funding settlement. If Wales had its share of the HS2 project, we would have £5 billion—billion—into our block grant, enabling us to improve investment into the railway system. We need the UK Government to fulfil their responsibilities to improve the rail network in Wales.
I will, of course, have a lot to say about charting a new course for transport for Wales. We were groundbreaking in introducing our active travel Act. Our approach to transport is underpinned by the well-being of future generations Act. All decisions will be taken considering the long-term consequences for those who have not been born yet.
Building on these foundations, 'Llwybr Newydd' takes a bold new approach. It focuses on three simple priorities: firstly, reduce the need to travel; secondly, allow people and goods to move more easily from door to door by sustainable forms of transport; and thirdly, encourage people to make the change to more sustainable transport.
On bus, we will implement a new model for services, one that will enable us and local authorities to work together to purposefully design our bus networks; one that serves our communities under a fully contracted franchising system. This is the mostfar-reaching bus franchising plan in the UK, and a vital step to reverse the damage of Tory deregulation. That legislation will take time, so in parallel we're working with the bus industry to make improvements to passenger experience, and these steps are laid out in 'Bws Cymru', our bus plan.
Our ambitious plans for the metro build on evidence from around the world that shows that if you want people to use public transport it needs to be 'turn up and go'. The climate emergency means the need for change is urgent, and delivering urgent change requires making difficult, transformational changes in line with our well-being goals. That is what 'Llwybr Newydd' sets out to do. We need a fairer deal to deliver it in total. Devolution would bring benefits to decarbonisation and encourage modal shift. But the UK Government has consistently rejected our request for devolution and continuously fails to invest in Wales, including refusing to electrify the main south Wales coast rail line to Swansea—an absolute scandal. We call on them to finally get on board and help us achieve the better transport the people of Wales need and deserve. Find some solutions and stop running Wales down. Diolch.

Peter Fox AS: I feel I've got the poisoned chalice in trying to round this into some sort of conclusion. May I first, though, start by thanking everybody who contributed to this emotive debate? It is important for everyone, because at the heart of this debate today is a question I think all of us in the Chamber and, indeed, people across the country, have a keen interest in: what does a modern transport system in Wales that meets the needs of the communities look like? We've heard several perspectives on things today, and I thank Natasha for opening the debate so forcefully, pointing out that the network here is not fit for purpose, that Welsh Labour are letting us down and our people down, and they're letting the economy down, not listening to the freight lobby that are so dependent on our road structure. She highlighted those many projects that have been frozen, which are locking up our economy further now. Now, we know there is no silver bullet to address all of these things, and it does need a big programme of work between us. We have a wonderful country, which needs connecting, and connecting well.
Delyth Jewell pointed out very clearly in her opening statement that the transport network is not fit for purpose, and we agree with you, Delyth, and that's the premise of the debate today. I know your focus was on rail infrastructure, but there is so much more to the transport network than just rail. As Sam pointed out very clearly, there are poor opportunities in our rural communities. He pointed out the irony of the Welsh narrative against what's really on offer in rural communities, and highlighted those transport failures in his constituency.
Carolyn and Rhianon, I won't dwell too much on your contributions, because they were very much focused in one area and, I think, demonstrated your lack of understanding of the wider strategic issues facing the rural communities across Wales, because it's not all one-dimensional. You have to think about the other wider part of our community, the rural communities, which make up such a mass of our Welsh country.
Gareth, you pointed out the major concerns in the Vale of Clwyd, and you raised that earlier today and you pointed out the poor access to public transport and reiterated the issues—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Peter Fox AS: I will, yes. I certainly will.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you, that's very kind of you. Obviously, you're entitled to say what you wish. Could you point out—[Interruption.]

I can't hear the intervention. Can we just hear the intervention and then we can move on?

Rhianon Passmore AC: Briefly, can you point out what it is both Carolyn and I don't understand?

Peter Fox AS: Well, you referenced the rail service and the current strikes, but you're not comprehending some of the questions Gareth put back to you, or the wider issues of the rural community. You focused very clearly on that one area, and I'm trying to point out that the transport network covers far more than just the rail area and those immediate issues that you focused on.
So, yes, the transport network is central to the success of our economy, and it's fundamental to our health and well-being, as Janet pointed out very firmly. It's so important that the transport system is solid, to enable our economy to drive forward. And Janet also highlighted the dire state of the rail network we have at the moment and the poor conditions of the trains we're currently using. Now, that shouldn't be the project of many, many years of Welsh Labour Government here and we should see something better than that. In many of these areas, the only option people have in rural areas to get around is to drive, but this isn't an option for everyone. For people who do not have access to a car or those who may not wish to drive, the only option is buses, which often do not stop in the areas people need them to and are infrequent, as very clearly Sam pointed out. Taxis are the other way forward, which due to the distances involved can be prohibitively expensive for some people, whilst the nearest train station can be inaccessible for people, due to the points I raised earlier.
And whilst I hear what the Minister says about 'Llwybr Newydd', and I did take some time and read it, and it is actually a good read—and it's very aspirational; it has some really great ideas in it—but it's rhetoric; it's a narrative. What we're not seeing—I know it's spread over 20 years—is actual solutions to the issues here. It has aspirations about rural communities, staying at home, and working from home, and sharing lifts and things like that, but it has to have a lot more than that. We have to have a robust system in place that can get us from where we are now to that great aspiration, and what we're not seeing is those gaps being filled in at the moment. [Interruption.] Yes, I will, Tom.

Tom Giffard AS: Do you share with me my disappointment, actually, that we listened to the Minister for five and a half minutes not take a single shred of responsibility for the amount of powers that they've had to sort out the transport infrastructure here in Wales, and instead spent that time blaming the UK Government? They have been responsible for transport here in Wales for a long time, and there has been no responsibility whatsoever in the Minister's response to our debate.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Tom Giffard. Sadly, in my 12 months here in this place, I've tended to hear regularly that, where we get into a difficult spot, it's always somebody else's fault. Now, being the leader of an administration myself for many years, the buck had to stop with me—[Interruption.] Yes, of course, Minister.

Julie James AC: The Conservative Government should give us the consequential from HS2.

Peter Fox AS: Minister, you will be pleased that we don't disagree with you on that, and we will continue to make that position clear from our benches. But a Government should not continue to divest itself of responsibilities from areas and blame somebody else all the time. Twenty-three years you have been in place. Okay, you may not have had all of the levers all of the time, but you had enough time to create a strategy that could deliver for the people of Wales. And whilst you've got your visionary document, it doesn't deliver in the ways that it needs to deliver as we move forward. I mean, on some of the things that you pointed out, Minister, you talked about the desire for more cycle lanes and active travel. Well, the reality is you cannot run freight up cycle lanes—you cannot—and we have not got a rail infrastructure to convert our lorries onto rail. We still need a robust system to enable our transport to get around. And the road-building ban has caused some significant issues, as was pointed out earlier on, and we can see things like—I'll point to my own area—the Chepstow bypass put on hold. Yet, the road feeding from the A48 into Chepstow, Hardwick Hill—the most polluted road in Wales since Hafodyrynys has been removed—definitely needs us to think on pollution grounds alone to continue that project to do a bypass around Chepstow. That's very clear.
And I think it's also a timely opportunity for us to review how the metros—both metros—are going to impact on rural communities, because metro is a multimodal model of thinking, so what will we see in the likes of Monmouthshire, in Powys, in Gwynedd. What do we see? Will we see rapid bus transit? What's the progress on delivering that? Are we going to see integrated ticketing rolled out in the very near future to join up those public transport elements? We're not seeing them, and yet, these people are suffering now because we're embarking on this expectation to get us all on our bikes, all out of our cars, but the reality is that that cannot happen now. [Interruption.]

No. The Member has been very generous in accepting interventions, and I've been quite generous with giving him time for that. So, I think you need to conclude now.

Peter Fox AS: Sorry about that, James.

I think you need to conclude now.

Peter Fox AS: To conclude, Llywydd, I urge Members to vote for our unamended motion before us today. There's no doubt about it, the structure that we have and the network that we have at the moment is not fit for purpose. We need to get from where we are now to the aspirations captured in the Government's document, so how do we get there? Currently, we haven't got the answer, but people are suffering as a result. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection and, therefore, we will defer the vote until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We'll now take a short break before voting time to prepare the technology for those votes.

Plenary was suspended at 17:11.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:17, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. The first vote this afternoon is on item 8, the Welsh Conservatives debate on the transport network. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, 10 abstentions, 27 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The transport network. Motion without amendment: For: 15, Against: 27, Abstain: 10
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, no abstentions, 25 against, and therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 27, Against: 25, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote on amendment 2. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 15 against, therefore amendment 2 is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 2, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian: For: 37, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreedClick to see vote results

We now vote on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM8033 as amended:
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Believes Llwybr Newydd is a transport strategy for Wales that is fit for the climate emergency.
2. Calls on the UK Government to provide adequate funding to Wales for investment in the public transport network;
3. Believes that rail infrastructure should be devolved to ensure Wales gets its fair share from projects such as HS2.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 27, 10 abstentions, 15 against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 8. Welsh Conservatives Debate - The transport network. Motion as amended: For: 27, Against: 15, Abstain: 10
Motion as amended has been agreedClick to see vote results

And that concludes voting time, thank goodness.

10. Short Debate: School exclusion: More harm than good?

We now move on to the short debate. So, if those leaving the Chamber can do so quietly.

If Members can leave the Chamber quietly. We're still in session. I asked for some quiet as you leave the Chamber, please. We're still in session. I'm going to be calling Jenny Rathbone to introduce her short debate. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I've agreed to give a minute of my time to Heledd Fychan. I represent a very diverse constituency, with both some of the poorest and some of the richest households in Wales. I've long been intrigued by the way different schools in Cardiff and elsewhere deal with pupils' behavioural difficulties and the efforts, or not, they've put into avoiding excluding pupils.
About 10 years ago, Julie Morgan and I visited the pupil referral unit in Gabalfa, and I vividly recall listening to one girl describe the hot meals with pudding she had enjoyed in primary school. It was clear to me that she had not had a hot meal in the three years since, either in school or at home, and I often wonder what happened to her and how her life might have been different if she'd had better support to thrive in school.
We have long judged schools on the proportion of pupils who achieve five A to Cs at GCSE and higher qualifications that get them into the university or training place of their choice. Attainment is very important. Society needs the next generation to have the ability to save our lives if we get run over on our roads, or to re-engineer our homes, our transport and our food system in response to our climate obligations, or, indeed, to make the wealth we need to meet the needs of future generations. But merely focusing on attainment is a blunt tool for measuring how well schools are educating all their pupils.
Children are not born equal, and some children arrive in reception with several adverse childhood experiences already under their belt, and few words to communicate their feelings, whilst others will already have learnt to write their name and express themselves clearly. The new curriculum provides us with the opportunity—indeed, the requirement—to look at the wider aspects of education, particularly the well-being aspects of children's right to an education. This is particularly pertinent to the Welsh Government's ambition to reduce the poverty attainment gap.
The numbers involved are not that significant. Statistically, Cardiff does better on fixed-term exclusions, with 17 per 1,000 pupils, versus 29 per 1,000 for Wales as a whole. These are figures for the last available period, which is 2019-20, and any subsequent figures are not going to be that useful at the moment, because, obviously, the lockdown will have hugely skewed them in one direction or another.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Jenny Rathbone AC: On permanent exclusions, the picture is reversed in 2019-20: 7 pupils per 10,000 permanently excluded in Cardiff versus 5 per 10,000 across Wales, though the numbers were the same in the previous year across the country, 5 per 10,000. But, behind these small numbers there are other strategies that some schools use to get rid of pupils they no longer want to be responsible for. Managed moves is one strategy. Looking the other way when challenging pupils fail to turn up is another. Deregistering a pupil because of persistent absence from school is an additional one. Unless there is clarity on why they are not attending and where they have moved to, schools are not discharging their duty of care to individual young people. If there are causes for concern at home, schools are most definitely in the best position to notice and to do something about it.
Even if the real rates of exclusion are twice what the published figures are, the numbers are still small, but their impact on society at large is enormous. One headteacher told me that exclusion is a lifetime sentence to mental illness and/or incarceration. Without qualifications, a young person's chances of getting and holding down a decent job are also very, very unlikely. As an aside, our prisons are full of people who are mentally ill and have lots of adverse childhood experiences. Those views of that headteacher are borne out by the research. Professor Ann John and others at Swansea University have analysed the anonymised education and health records of 400,000 pupils, which firmly link exclusion or persistent absence to current or future poor mental health.
They've yet to prove that school exclusion causes suicide rather than suicidal tendencies being expressed in the behavioural problems that lead to exclusion, but the link to mental illness, suicide and involvement with the police is clear and backed up by various academic studies. It is self-evident that the people who need guidance in school the most are not going to thrive if left unsupervised on the streets, where they are at the mercy of drug dealers—certainly in my constituency.
The Children, Young People and Education Committee's live inquiry into school absences throws up a lot of information that is also relevant to exclusions, as it is to the increased numbers of young people absent from school. Free school meals, ethnicity, additional learning needs, and particularly the significant rise in those identifying as neurodivergent, are characteristics that make a pupil more likely to be persistently absent. Even if they are present, are they making progress in their learning? If not, what strategies are schools using to address that? That's not something that we capture at the moment; we tick off their presence but not what is happening when they are in school.
The education Minister's evidence to the Children, Young People and Education Committee's inquiry echoes that of the framework for the whole-school approach to emotional and mental well-being, which was issued by Kirsty Williams and Eluned Morgan in the fifth Parliament, which is the importance of a multidisciplinary approach. You cannot expect teachers who are also teaching a class of 30 to also be dealing with the complexity of the individual needs of a child who may need some very highly supported one-to-one support. So, I absolutely agree that the school alone cannot meet all the needs of what is a complex population of young people whose needs will vary as they progress through infancy to adolescence and early adulthood.
It's not about medicalising well-being; it is about taking account of the continuum of need. Primarily, it is about building resilience and ensuring preventative action. But, we really do need to know why there has been this significant rise in the incidence of people with neurodivergence, and I would suggest that the mobile phone may be one of the causes, in the sense that I constantly observe parents on the bus with a small child who will be talking on the phone to somebody rather than talking to their child, and if nobody is talking to a child, they won't learn how to speak, because this is not something we just do organically, it's something that we all learn. That concern is emphasised by the experience of speech and language therapists who go into school when there are particular communication needs.
So, I would like to see a focus on the needs of people who are in danger of being excluded from school. That needs to run parallel to the strategies for addressing the rise in school absences post lockdown, which is what the Children, Young People, and Education Committee is investigating.
I absolutely acknowledge that there are no easy or quick solutions to reduce exclusion—indeed, eliminating exclusion in all but the most extreme cases of violence to other pupils or staff. The cost to society of excluding children from their right to an education because they don't fit into the provision designed for the majority is significant, and the link to either graduating to involvement with the law, probation and, ultimately, prison system is expensive for society and tragic for the individual. Where that doesn't occur, even more tragic for the individual is their poor mental health, the most extreme example of which is obviously taking their own life.
Now, the inverse care law was well established by the work of Julian Tudor Hart. So, how do you combat the inverse well-being burden on schools with very different intakes? Some schools are much more comprehensive than others. That's certainly true in Cardiff, where the range of free school meals in secondary schools is between 7 per cent and 55 per cent. So, for the community school approach that the Minister is advocating in the school absence inquiry to be the most successful, all schools, in my view, need to adopt it. We can't just have some schools dealing with this issue rather than others.
So, my questions to the Minister are: how do you ensure that all local education authorities, consortia and schools within them are emulating the practices of the best on this subject? And given the link to deprivation, how do you ensure that the oversubscribed schools with the least challenges are not simply dumping the problem on less popular and much more challenged schools? Is the funding formula sufficiently nuanced so that resource distribution is equitable? And lastly, when do you expect to release the new guidance on exclusions, which were mentioned by Rocio Cifuentes in the Children, Young People, and Education Committee's inquiry? I also heard you say earlier that you were going to make a statement next week on matters related, so I look forward to hearing what you have to say on this really important subject.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I thank Jenny Rathbone for tabling this very important discussion? Obviously, it is hugely concerning. As someone who was previously a councillor in Rhondda Cynon Taf, I was particularly concerned by the high levels of school exclusions, and particularly among young boys. It seemed to be a problem that wasn't being addressed. I know now, from casework coming in to my office, in terms of school exclusions linked to child and adolescent mental health services not being available, and 30-month waiting times, and these young people are desperate for help, their families are desperate to find them the support that's required, and yet the only route possible is then to exclude them from the one place where they should be safe and where they should be supported. It's also the ad hoc support at present. Some schools are able to afford in-house councillors, therefore bypassing things like CAMHS and providing that immediate support. I'm also concerned with some of the three-to-16 and three-to-19 schools, and what I'm told by parents and teachers and pupils about how difficult it is when you have perhaps pupils that require greater support, but the school just cannot provide that. There are also exclusions because teachers are concerned about the impact of, perhaps, behaviour that may be considered threatening on younger pupils, those who are in the three-to-11 age, and thinking about the general impact.
So, this is something we must get to grips with. It's a situation that's worsening, and it's particularly problematic in some of our disadvantaged areas where there's child poverty and there are so many different concerns. I also know that parents are fighting for support, but not all parents and carers are able to fight for that support, and therefore we're in this circle of people being failed generation after generation.
School exclusions—I completely agree with you—they should be a last resort. We should be keeping children and young people in school, and I hope we can do more to secure that in the future.

Joyce Watson AC: I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to reply to the debate. Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, acting Llywydd. May I thank Jenny Rathbone for putting forward this short debate? Every child and young person has the right to receive an education that inspires them and prepares them to fulfil their potential in a safe and supportive environment. I want to be clear that the decision to exclude a learner should only be taken when everything else has failed, that is, that the school accepts that all the strategies available to them to support that young person have failed.
To decrease the number of exclusions, it's vital to understand why children are having difficulties at school that could cause behaviour that leads to their exclusion. We are already supporting schools in this regard through our work to tackle adverse childhood experiences and through the implementation of the additional learning needs legislation and by providing the right support and provision. And we've funded this to the tune of £67 million to date, and in addition we commit to invest £21 million a year until 2025.
The Welsh Government expects schools to work jointly with local authorities to find another school or setting if a pupil continues to have difficulties in the original school despite all efforts to support them. Our guidance on exclusion notes clearly that the Welsh Government isn't of the view that it is appropriate for schools to commission external provision to deal with issues related to behaviour, for example, home tutoring for those who refuse to attend school. When decisions have been made to exclude a pupil, priority must be given to ensuring the best outcome for that young person that means that they can enjoy their right to receive an education.
Although it's true to say that not all cases of misbehaviour are the sign of an unmet need, we have to be willing to accept what the behaviour of the pupil does convey to us. So, schools have to investigate the fundamental factors that could contribute to poor behaviour, such as learning disabilities and mental health issues, such as trauma. These need to be tackled to ensure that these issues do not deteriorate to such an extent that exclusion is the only answer.

Jeremy Miles AC: In November 2021, Administrative Data ResearchWales published its examination of the association of school absence and exclusion with recorded neurodevelopmental and mental conditions in a large cohort of children and young people in Wales. It found that school absenteeism and exclusion rates were higher after the age of 11 in all children, but disproportionately more so in those with a recorded condition. The study also found individuals with more than one recorded condition were more likely to be absent or excluded, and this was exacerbated with each additional condition.To improve the evidence base about the mental health of pupils who have been excluded, we have asked ADR Wales to rerun the research project to link education and health data to identify whether pupils who are excluded, with a focus on those who are in education other than at school, have poorer mental health than those in mainstream provision. ADR are currently developing this proposal.
As part of our whole-school approach to emotional and mental well-being, jointly sponsored by me and the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, we're looking at how schools work with other agencies, such as CAMHS, to meet the needs of young people and enable them to stay engaged in their education. And our aim is to ensure schools across Wales are able to develop consistent plans to meet the emotional and mental health needs of their students.
Our whole-school approach framework statutory guidance published last year highlights that key to achieving effective teaching and learning is ensuring that teachers have the necessary skills to approach their teaching in ways that reduce the likelihood of poor behaviour, whilst also equipping them with effective skills and responses for those instances where difficult behaviour does occur. Where teachers have good preventative and responsive skills, the likelihood of difficulties emerging or developing into incidents and escalating to exclusion will be markedly reduced.
There are already many instances of good practice—and Jenny Rathbone alluded to this in her opening remarks—good practice on which we can draw, and I want to make sure that, through our new guidance, which I'll say more about in a moment, we are able to make sure that schools do draw on that good practice. And we know that many schools undertake well-being audits, which give pupils an opportunity to share how they feel about themselves, their relationships, their progress in school. This is used by staff alongside other information, such as attendance and behaviour information, to identify those who may benefit from additional support.
Schools have also used our whole-school approach funding to train emotional literacy support assistants to support pupils to reflect and share honestly their thoughts and feelings, with the aim of understanding the psychological need behind poor self-esteem and undesirable behaviour, enabling them to relate better to their peers, to improve their decision making in social contexts, and to be better at identifying risky situations.Recognising the importance of this work, the Deputy Minister and I have agreed funding of £12.2 million in the current year to support emotional and mental well-being in schools, part of an over £43 million investment over the course of the three-year budget.
In reflecting on the impact of the pandemic on learning, and in considering the wider policy contexts, such as ALN reforms, it's clear that updating our exclusions guidance must be a priority. This will ensure that it's able to draw on all the good work, activity and learning that has taken place since the guidance was last updated in 2019, and I hope to have the new guidance available early next year. But I'm keen that this work is not undertaken in isolation, and that all interrelated policies are considered holistically.
The recent attendance review contained a number of recommendations that we will be taking forward, one of which is a review of the current attendance guidance. This will include sharing and disseminating best practice for improving attendance and considering how best schools can engage with learners and their families and provide targeted professional development. As part of this work, I'm keen that we review the definition of 'persistent absence', which is currently considered as being more than 20 per cent absent. This is an important measure as it's often set as the trigger for certain kinds of intervention, such as the involvement of the education welfare service.
The report also highlighted the link between deteriorating attendance and subsequent behavioural and emotional problems of the sort that Jenny Rathbone referred to very compellingly in her opening speech. And if they're not addressed, they may lead to exclusion of those learners from school. This reinforces the need for these policies to be considered and reviewed in parallel. The disproportionate number of exclusions of learners with additional educational needs will be another key factor in the development of our new policy in this area. But this must go beyond a simple update of guidance. I think the events of the last two years have undoubtedly had an impact on all learners to varying degrees, and our approach must be centred on a learner-first ethos that considers the different experiences and circumstances of each of our learners, particularly post pandemic. And I am committed to embedding a children's rights approach to policy making, and it is this key principle that will guide our approach.

Joyce Watson AC: And that brings proceedings to a close today.

The meeting ended at 17:44.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Climate Change

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the Minister provide an update on the rollout of a deposit-return scheme in Wales?

Julie James: Having undertaken the joint consultation with the UK Government and Northern Ireland Executive setting out the proposals for the design of the deposit-return scheme, we are working collaboratively on the final scheme design, which we aim to jointly publish before the summer recess.

Huw Irranca-Davies: What engagement will the Minister have with environmental organisations in Wales prior to and during the COP 15 UN Biodiversity Conference in October 2022?

Julie James: Engagement with environmental organisations in Wales is ongoing, including as part of my current biodiversity deep-dive, and will be an essential part of our approach in achieving our ambitions for the global biodiversity framework. We await confirmation of the date of the COP 15 biodiversity conference this year.

Carolyn Thomas: What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of pre-payment meters on rental tenants?

Julie James: Higher tariffs and standing charges are having a devasting impact on almost half of social housing tenants and a quarter of tenants in the private rented sector using pre-payment meters. Many will be in fuel poverty and will be self-disconnecting. I expect Ofgem to publish self-disconnection data later this year.

Questions to the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language

Joyce Watson: What is the Welsh Government doing to raise pupils' attainment levels in Mid and West Wales?

Jeremy Miles: My oral statement on 22 March set out my intention to raise attainment and I am committed to ensuring this for every learner, especially our most disadvantaged learners, and have put in place a range of measures to realise this ambition.

Natasha Asghar: Will the Minister provide an update on the provision of free school meals in Wales?

Jeremy Miles: On Monday, I announced plans about the roll-out of the co-operation agreement commitment to deliver universal primary free school meals. From September, children in reception classes will be the first to start receiving a free meal as part of these plans.